John Means 2021

[wildcard]

No one is untouchable but Means is about as close as it gets.  Starting price in a trade would be two players better than he is plus a few others with the potential to be major leaguers.

[LocoChris]

1 hour ago, Frobby said:

Who overrated Buehrle?  117 ERA+ over 16 years, .572 winning percentage, threw 200 IP 14 straight years, 214 wins, 59.1 rWAR.  I’d call him highly underrated.   

He was a very good but not great pitcher. His ERA was solid but nothing to write home about, but he was an innings eater for sure. Win totals don't mean a whole lot.

[Just Regular]

2 hours ago, Sports Guy said:

I think the best player that you may have some chance to acquire is Royce Lewis.

Is Royce better than Jo Adell?   I think Adell more expendable to his club.   As we never know other clubs prospects as well, for valuation in this game pretend the Means buyer has our farm system.    Are we dealing him straight up for Grayson?   

Kjerstad?   

Maybe it is overfitting Astros comps, but I think Keuchel more than Buehrle.   He's even on track for his Cy Young this year so far!    Some of that is generational; even Buehrle baseball kind of ancient history by now.

Do Blue Jays want to waste Springer Year 1 waiting on Pearson to get good?   Austin Martin....though then we'd lose the Kjerstad/Mayo/Baumler hypotheticals.

This all presumes another 3 months of excellence - some of what makes an Ace is it lasting >10 starts.   Bedard had beasted 60 starts before the trade.

 

 

[Sports Guy]

36 minutes ago, OrioleDog said:

Is Royce better than Jo Adell?   I think Adell more expendable to his club.   As we never know other clubs prospects as well, for valuation in this game pretend the Means buyer has our farm system.    Are we dealing him straight up for Grayson?   

Kjerstad?   

Maybe it is overfitting Astros comps, but I think Keuchel more than Buehrle.   He's even on track for his Cy Young this year so far!    Some of that is generational; even Buehrle baseball kind of ancient history by now.

Do Blue Jays want to waste Springer Year 1 waiting on Pearson to get good?   Austin Martin....though then we'd lose the Kjerstad/Mayo/Baumler hypotheticals.

This all presumes another 3 months of excellence - some of what makes an Ace is it lasting >10 starts.   Bedard had beasted 60 starts before the trade.

 

 

I would have to look at it but Lewis is a SS.

I considered Adell but I don’t think we need to target an OFer as the main piece in a Means trade.  Of course, you take the BPA but still, I would be looking for other areas of need first.

[Sports Guy]

1 hour ago, LocoChris said:

He was a very good but not great pitcher. His ERA was solid but nothing to write home about, but he was an innings eater for sure. Win totals don't mean a whole lot.

Win totals don’t mean anything in any given season.  They absolutely mean something over a career.  If you win 200+ games, you have been a damn good pitcher.

[Orioles0615]

Padres will still not be a able to beat the dodgers and the get desperate and we get Abrams. That’s about the only type of trade I do for Means

[Aristotelian]

2 hours ago, LocoChris said:

He was a very good but not great pitcher. His ERA was solid but nothing to write home about, but he was an innings eater for sure. Win totals don't mean a whole lot.

60 WAR is pretty solid and good not great was exactly why he came to mind as a comp for Means. There are quite a few in the Hall with less than that. Are you saying Means is a lock for HOF?

[Frobby]

48 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Win totals don’t mean anything in any given season.  They absolutely mean something over a career.  If you win 200+ games, you have been a damn good pitcher.

I agree, and it’s not like Buehrle always played on good teams, or good offensive teams.   

But in any event, who said Buehrle was a “great” pitcher?   He was very good for a long time.   Pretty much any team in baseball would have been very happy to have him.  

A great comp for Buehrle is Andy Pettitte.  Pettitte threw 3316 innings at ERA+ of 117, Buehrle 3283 IP at 117.   Pettitte was 256-153 for the Yankees and Astros, Buehrle 214-160 for the White Sox, Marlins and Blue Jays.  It’s probably fair to say that Pettitte’s better record was the result of playing on superior teams.    So I’d say wins are relevant, but you do need to look at other factors.   

 

[LocoChris]

1 hour ago, Sports Guy said:

Win totals don’t mean anything in any given season.  They absolutely mean something over a career.  If you win 200+ games, you have been a damn good pitcher.

He also had a lot of losses. He had an exceptional track record for staying healthy. 30+ starts in 15 straight seasons -- insane. Buehrle is a guy I'd describe as:

• Innings eater
• Reliable/consistent
• Extremely durable
• Will give you a chance to win every time out

Things he is, in my opinion, not:

• An ace
• Elite
• A Hall of Famer

[Sports Guy]

Just now, LocoChris said:

He also had a lot of losses. He had an exceptional track record for staying healthy. 30+ starts in 15 straight seasons -- insane. Buehrle is a guy I'd describe as:

• Innings eater
• Reliable/consistent
• Extremely durable
• Will give you a chance to win every time out

Things he is, in my opinion, not:

• An ace
• Elite
• A Hall of Famer

I agree with that...but saying he isn’t one of those things doesn’t mean he is an overrated pitcher.  
 

I would agree that he is underrated.  

[LocoChris]

Pettitte was a great comparison IMO. Overrated may have been harsh. Don't think he's underrated though. I've always thought he's been highly thought of in the baseball world.

[Sports Guy]

34 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I agree, and it’s not like Buehrle always played on good teams, or good offensive teams.   

But in any event, who said Buehrle was a “great” pitcher?   He was very good for a long time.   Pretty much any team in baseball would have been very happy to have him.  

A great comp for Buehrle is Andy Pettitte.  Pettitte threw 3316 innings at ERA+ of 117, Buehrle 3283 IP at 117.   Pettitte was 256-153 for the Yankees and Astros, Buehrle 214-160 for the White Sox, Marlins and Blue Jays.  It’s probably fair to say that Pettitte’s better record was the result of playing on superior teams.    So I’d say wins are relevant, but you do need to look at other factors.   

 

Pettitte gets the nod because of how well he pitched in the postseason.

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, Sports Guy said:

Pettitte gets the nod because of how well he pitched in the postseason.

I like Pettitte since folks have conveniently forgotten about his PED use.

[Frobby]

13 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Pettitte gets the nod because of how well he pitched in the postseason.

Shrug.  3.84 ERA in the regular season, 3.81 in the postseason.  He had 276 innings in the postseason, Buehrle had 30.   Put them on each others’ teams and Buehrle is the one who gets more than a full season of postseason innings.   

[Mr. Chewbacca Jr.]

1 hour ago, Frobby said:

I agree, and it’s not like Buehrle always played on good teams, or good offensive teams.   

But in any event, who said Buehrle was a “great” pitcher?   He was very good for a long time.   Pretty much any team in baseball would have been very happy to have him.  

A great comp for Buehrle is Andy Pettitte.  Pettitte threw 3316 innings at ERA+ of 117, Buehrle 3283 IP at 117.   Pettitte was 256-153 for the Yankees and Astros, Buehrle 214-160 for the White Sox, Marlins and Blue Jays.  It’s probably fair to say that Pettitte’s better record was the result of playing on superior teams.    So I’d say wins are relevant, but you do need to look at other factors.   

 

I've always felt that Buehrle was super underrated. Threw +200 IP of very good baseball for basically 15 years straight, half of which was during some crazy, steroid times in MLB. Pitched for a lot of bad teams. He was never "elite" - but I think his resume holds up to Jim Bunning, Jack Morris, Don Sutton, and that group of HOFs.