The second guessing Hyde thread.

[SteveA]

1 hour ago, Mr-splash said:

We need a couple blowouts (preferably wins) right about now. Have the starter go 5 or 6 then bring in a guy to mop up. 

We had a 4 run lead in the 9th Tuesday and used Cano.  That is why he wasn't available yesterday and that is why we lost yesterday.

Irvin could have pitched an inning or two Tuesday and spared Cano.  Or Voth could have gone more than one inning Monday and we could have saved a reliever like Coulombe for the 9th Tuesday.

If Cano hadn't pitched Tuesday, he could have gone Wednesday and yesterday and we would have won the series.

Why was Irvin not used the past 3 days?  Why was Both lites to one inning Monday when he just threw 16 pitches and had an effective inning?

We could have taken three out of four with the bullpen was very poorly managed in this series.

Edited May 19, 2023 by SteveA

[glenn__davis]

33 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Look around MLB and you’ll see it very rarely happens.  

That's fine, but that has to be a (somewhat) recent thing.  Growing up I definitely remember guys routinely pitching more than 2 days in a row out of the bullpen.  I'm just curious as to when this became a hard fast rule that it can't happen.

[Aristotelian]

34 minutes ago, SteveA said:

We had a 4 run lead in the 9th Tuesday and used Cano.  That is why he wasn't available yesterday and that is why we lost yesterday.

Irvin could have pitched an inning or two Tuesday and spared Cano.  Or Voth could have gone more than one inning Monday and we could have saved a reliever like Coulombe for the 9th Tuesday.

If Cano hadn't pitched Tuesday, he could have gone Wednesday and yesterday and we would have won the series.

Why was Irvin not used the past 3 days?  Why was Both lites to one inning Monday when he just threw 16 pitches and had an effective inning?

We could have taken three out of four with the bullpen was very poorly managed in this series.

Hyde had Irvin up as an emergency option, not someone he trusts in a close winnable game. He is not relevant to winning or losing the series.

Why Cano? If we blow a four run lead the board would be up in arms. If the next game is a blowout then all of a sudden Cano needs to pitch and he's wasted. I have no problem with securing the win there with Cano and Bautista still available for Game 3 and Bautista-plus for Game 4.

Baker is the one who lost game 4 for us and he is normally a reliable high leverage guy. Baumann as well. Those guys need to step up if you want to win a four game series. Sometimes it's on the players. 

[Otter]

39 minutes ago, glenn__davis said:

That's fine, but that has to be a (somewhat) recent thing.  Growing up I definitely remember guys routinely pitching more than 2 days in a row out of the bullpen.  I'm just curious as to when this became a hard fast rule that it can't happen.

I think it depends on the pitcher.  Some guys have rubber arms, and some guys need more rest.  

[Tony-OH]

14 hours ago, seak05 said:

I said in the Tuesday game thread that I didn’t like Hyde using Cano for the 9th with a 4 run lead. I get that Irvin is a “long guy” but that doesn’t mean he’s incapable of pitching an inning, saving Cano. And it would have avoided the situation we saw today, where Hyde was staying away from Cano, because it would have been three in a row.

Then today, when the O’s could have used a long man, when Wells left after 5, he avoided Irvin again, and burned through 4 pitchers.

Hyde burning through his bullpen seems to be a pattern, and why have Irvin up if you’re not willing to pitch him 

 

This is my biggest issue with how Hyde manages his bullpen. The bullpen always seems to be short because he ends up using 4 or 5 pitchers to get through 4 innings vs having a length guy like Baumann, Voth and now Irvin eat three innings once in awhile. 

Hyde has used 5 pitchers 19 or more games this year (Bautista, Cano, Perez, Baumann, and Coulombe) and has used Cano 17 times despite not being on the team until two weeks into the season. Tampa has used one reliever 19 or more times (Adam - 19), Boston has used one, Yankees have used 3, and Toronto 4.  

Hyde has/had three guys in his bullpen that can provide length, but Baumanm has only pitched two or more innings in 4 of 19 games, Voth 5 of his 16 appearances, and Akin only once in his 13 games before being sent to AAA. 

Now I get that it seems like the Orioles are always in close games, but at some point you need to let pitchers just take some innings so your bullpen can rest. I felt like even though Baumann was not pitching great, he pulled him way too early yesterday. If your length guys can't provide length, what are they on the team for? 

[wildcard]

27 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

Hyde had Irvin up as an emergency option, not someone he trusts in a close winnable game. He is not relevant to winning or losing the series.

Why Cano? If we blow a four run lead the board would be up in arms. If the next game is a blowout then all of a sudden Cano needs to pitch and he's wasted. I have no problem with securing the win there with Cano and Bautista still available for Game 3 and Bautista-plus for Game 4.

Baker is the one who lost game 4 for us and he is normally a reliable high leverage guy. Baumann as well. Those guys need to step up if you want to win a four game series. Sometimes it's on the players. 

So what you are saying is that Irvin is not to be trusted with a 4 run lead?

[Tony-OH]

43 minutes ago, glenn__davis said:

That's fine, but that has to be a (somewhat) recent thing.  Growing up I definitely remember guys routinely pitching more than 2 days in a row out of the bullpen.  I'm just curious as to when this became a hard fast rule that it can't happen.

Not sure when it started, but it is pretty rare to see a guy pitch three days in a row now. Most likely it started when MLB instituted the three batter rule. Now the only way a pitcher pitches to less is if they are brought in to finish up an inning. 

It was easier to pitch guys more often if you could use them in the Tony LaRussa way of managing a bullpen.

[Aristotelian]

1 minute ago, wildcard said:

So what you are saying is that Irvin is not to be trusted with a 4 run lead?

I sure wouldn't, the way he pitched earlier. 4 runs is only one more than a save situation. Very possible Irvin would come in and create a Bautista situation even if he doesn't completely blow it. Pretty common to use your second best guy to close out that type of lead while keeping your closer available for the next one. 

[SteveA]

33 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

Hyde had Irvin up as an emergency option, not someone he trusts in a close winnable game. He is not relevant to winning or losing the series.

Why Cano? If we blow a four run lead the board would be up in arms. If the next game is a blowout then all of a sudden Cano needs to pitch and he's wasted. I have no problem with securing the win there with Cano and Bautista still available for Game 3 and Bautista-plus for Game 4.

Baker is the one who lost game 4 for us and he is normally a reliable high leverage guy. Baumann as well. Those guys need to step up if you want to win a four game series. Sometimes it's on the players. 

Yes, I agree that Baker failing to do his job is the primary reason we lost.

But I find some of your other statements ridiculous.   Irvin is a major league pitcher, not some emergency-only guy.   And Cano was used Tuesday in a 4 run lead in the 9th.   If you don't think Irvin can be trusted with a 4 run lead in the 9th, then he shouldn't be on the team or even the 40 man roster.

Yes the board would be up in arms if we blew a four run lead.   So what.   You don't manage because of fear of a message baord.    And any major league pitcher should be able to protect a 4 run lead in the 9th.  You don't use your best there.

Hyde is using too many relievers.   He is too often taking out a reliever after one inning when that guy is effective, and using another guy, making two guys unlikely to be available the next day instead of one.   Obviously the fact that our starters aren't going deep enough into games is a factor.   But if this is causing problems now, it's only going to be worse in August and September when arms start to break down as guys reach 60 appearances on the year.

[SteveA]

From 1903 to 2022, there have been 11584 games were the home team has exactly a 4 run lead going into the 9th.   The home team as won 11475 of those games.   That's over 99%.   

8 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

I sure wouldn't, the way he pitched earlier. 4 runs is only one more than a save situation. 

The most runs Cole Irvin has given up all year in an inning is 3.   So saying he couldn't protect a 4 run lead for one inning based on "the way he pitched earlier" is actually false.

[Aristotelian]

4 minutes ago, SteveA said:

Yes, I agree that Baker failing to do his job is the primary reason we lost.

But I find some of your other statements ridiculous.   Irvin is a major league pitcher, not some emergency-only guy.   And Cano was used Tuesday in a 4 run lead in the 9th.   If you don't think Irvin can be trusted with a 4 run lead in the 9th, then he shouldn't be on the team or even the 40 man roster.

Yes the board would be up in arms if we blew a four run lead.   So what.   You don't manage because of fear of a message baord.    And any major league pitcher should be able to protect a 4 run lead in the 9th.  You don't use your best there.

Hyde is using too many relievers.   He is too often taking out a reliever after one inning when that guy is effective, and using another guy, making two guys unlikely to be available the next day instead of one.   Obviously the fact that our starters aren't going deep enough into games is a factor.   But if this is causing problems now, it's only going to be worse in August and September when arms start to break down as guys reach 60 appearances on the year.

You want to avoid using Cano, someone else wants to use him 3 days in a row. I am pretty comfortable letting Hyde do his job without second guessing. Remind me, what problems is his bullpen usage causing right now? We have the #2 bullpen ERA in MLB. 

If you use Irvin for one inning, then he's not available as a long man should one of our starters get blown up. He is the shuttle guy, that is his role, not medium-high leverage of a winnable game vs a wild card contender.

[maybenxtyr]

As has been mentioned, they always seem to be in close games. 

 

Also, they'll call up a relief pitcher and never use them. That's the part that I don't understand. I know a lot of the ones that get called up will not be equal to the top few...very few, if any teams have that luxury. Irvin, Vespi and Rom have been in that situation. Irvin and Vespi have pitched to some degree of success at the ML level. You have to trust those pitcher's at some point. 

 

I had originally thought that they called up Irvin as an insurance policy for Rodriguez and his next start, but the math just doesn't add up. Why bring him up so soon when you could have just left Vespi up as an extra 1ish inning guy?

[maybenxtyr]

4 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

You want to avoid using Cano, someone else wants to use him 3 days in a row. I am pretty comfortable letting Hyde do his job without second guessing. Remind me, what problems is his bullpen usage causing right now? We have the #2 bullpen ERA in MLB. 

If you use Irvin for one inning, then he's not available as a long man should one of our starters get blown up. He is the shuttle guy, that is his role, not medium-high leverage of a winnable game vs a wild card contender.

You're not necessarily wrong, but that #2 BP ERA will likely crumble as the season rolls on if they continue wasting 1 or 2 spots in the BP for shuttle guys that they never use. The starters on this team are not the type that will give 6+ innings on a nightly basis. 

[Aristotelian]

6 minutes ago, maybenxtyr said:

You're not necessarily wrong, but that #2 BP ERA will likely crumble as the season rolls on if they continue wasting 1 or 2 spots in the BP for shuttle guys that they never use. The starters on this team are not the type that will give 6+ innings on a nightly basis. 

If the bullpen crumbles you can have every right to complain about it then. The bullpen did great last year. I see no reason to second guess Hyde at every turn although I realize that is the purpose of this thread.

[Aristotelian]

19 minutes ago, SteveA said:

From 1903 to 2022, there have been 11584 games were the home team has exactly a 4 run lead going into the 9th.   The home team as won 11475 of those games.   That's over 99%.   

The most runs Cole Irvin has given up all year in an inning is 3.   So saying he couldn't protect a 4 run lead for one inning based on "the way he pitched earlier" is actually false.

Interesting, I see three runs in an inning and think that's pretty close to four. You're right the odds of losing that game are pretty low, but isn't that because most managers don't use their absolute worst reliever in that situation? And even if we don't lose, all sorts of bad things could happen like having to bring in Bautista or going to extras. I don't know how to search for it but I don't think it is super unusual for a backend non-closer to be used with a 4 run lead.