Norfolk catchers find something they like in the water

[wildcard]

2 hours ago, DrungoHazewood said:

We know beyond any shadow of any doubts that 30-year-old Austin Wynns is a .600 or .650 OPS hitter in the majors.  Cumberland is a little harder to gauge, but that's because he's 26 and has never played in the majors and has very limited time above A ball.  Which says something by itself. 

But hey, if you want to make sweeping judgments based on 35 at bats go for it, I know that's your thing.

I didn't make a judgement.  I asked a question.   But exaggerate if you want.  I know that is your thing.

[DrungoHazewood]

37 minutes ago, Philip said:

That’s the thing, each catcher has clearly revealed himself. I don’t think Mike is just using them as warm bodies, because there are better warm bodies in the minors. The only logical conclusion, the only real options at all, actually, or that he’s either hoping that one or both of them will suddenly find the magic elixir that turns them from horrible into acceptable, or he is actively trying to sabotage the team, And I just refuse to believe that. It’s not impossible, but it is so unlikely as to be impossible.

But why they continue to play without a change is one of the great mysteries of the 21st century.

I fully expect whatever happens with AR, that neither of them will be back next season, but they shouldn’t be here now. And it is my hope that they will both depart soon.I fully expect whatever happens with AR, that neither of them will be back next season, but they shouldn’t be here now. And it is my hope that they will both depart soon.

I think it's more accurate to say that there are players in the minors who aren't the guys in the majors.  Much like backup quarterbacks behind struggling starters, the narrative becomes that the other guy has to be better.  Even when the evidence is scant, if it is there at all. 

Austin Wynns is probably a better defensive catcher than Sisco or Severino, but just as probably a worse hitter.  I don't really know much about Cumberland but I'm guessing the rest of the board doesn't either, and just wants a change.

[HowAboutThat]

3 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

I think it's more accurate to say that there are players in the minors who aren't the guys in the majors.  Much like backup quarterbacks behind struggling starters, the narrative becomes that the other guy has to be better.  Even when the evidence is scant, if it is there at all. 

Austin Wynns is probably a better defensive catcher than Sisco or Severino, but just as probably a worse hitter.  I don't really know much about Cumberland but I'm guessing the rest of the board doesn't either, and just wants a change.

Well you’re suggesting that at best it would be a lateral change, and I don’t disagree. It might very well be merely a lateral move, but all lateral moves are made with the possibility for improvement, and that is why I advocate making it. Making the transition from minor-league to major league hitting is really hard, the hope was that Sisco  might be able to make it because he apparently can draw a walk.

But his K rate is huge, he doesn’t even hit well for a catcher, and his defense is basically useless, so even if the guys down below aren’t any better, and even if they are worse, there’s no reason not to find out.

Edited May 21, 2021 by Philip

[wildcard]

There is always the possibility that optioning Sisco gets him more at bats and gets him hitting better so he can come back up and continue playing better in the majors.

[Can_of_corn]

3 minutes ago, wildcard said:

There is always the possibility that optioning Sisco gets him more at bats and gets him hitting better so he can come back up and continue playing better in the majors.

There is no reason why they can't give him more at bats at the ML level if they feel it would be helpful.

[Can_of_corn]

12 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

I think it's more accurate to say that there are players in the minors who aren't the guys in the majors.  Much like backup quarterbacks behind struggling starters, the narrative becomes that the other guy has to be better.  Even when the evidence is scant, if it is there at all. 

Austin Wynns is probably a better defensive catcher than Sisco or Severino, but just as probably a worse hitter.  I don't really know much about Cumberland but I'm guessing the rest of the board doesn't either, and just wants a change.

If Cumberland has difficulty breaking into the Orioles top 30 prospect lists I don't think he's going to impress at the ML level.

[wildcard]

12 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

There is no reason why they can't give him more at bats at the ML level if they feel it would be helpful.

Generally speaking hitting below the Mendoza line is not a good way to get more playing time.

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, wildcard said:

Generally speaking hitting below the Mendoza line is not a good way to get more playing time.

Generally speaking teams are built to win games.

[SteveA]

1 hour ago, Philip said:

That’s the thing, each catcher has clearly revealed himself. I don’t think Mike is just using them as warm bodies, because there are better warm bodies in the minors. The only logical conclusion, the only real options at all, actually, or that he’s either hoping that one or both of them will suddenly find the magic elixir that turns them from horrible into acceptable, or he is actively trying to sabotage the team, And I just refuse to believe that. It’s not impossible, but it is so unlikely as to be impossible.

But why they continue to play without a change is one of the great mysteries of the 21st century.

I fully expect whatever happens with AR, that neither of them will be back next season, but they shouldn’t be here now. And it is my hope that they will both depart soon.I fully expect whatever happens with AR, that neither of them will be back next season, but they shouldn’t be here now. And it is my hope that they will both depart soon.

Who is a better warm body in the minors, besides the obvious Rutschman who is not up yet either for developmental or service time reasons or some combination of the two?

I'm certainly willing to give Cumberland a chance, if he keeps up doing what he's doing for a reasonable sample size of at bats .. we are still less than 3 weeks into the minor league season.   But I'm not willing to declare him as flat out better.

EDIT:  Was reading the thread in order, now I see that @DrungoHazewood has made basically the same response.   Guess I should have read to the end before responding.

[DrungoHazewood]

37 minutes ago, SteveA said:

Who is a better warm body in the minors, besides the obvious Rutschman who is not up yet either for developmental or service time reasons or some combination of the two?

I'm certainly willing to give Cumberland a chance, if he keeps up doing what he's doing for a reasonable sample size of at bats .. we are still less than 3 weeks into the minor league season.   But I'm not willing to declare him as flat out better.

EDIT:  Was reading the thread in order, now I see that @DrungoHazewood has made basically the same response.   Guess I should have read to the end before responding.

It's always good when someone agrees with me and they didn't know they were doing it.

[Camden_yardbird]

The proposition of many in this thread:

"We are rebuilding we don't need to worry about team record, but we should definitely replace former organizational top 10 prospects with triple A non-prospects who have hit well in less than 40 at bats."

Nothing about that makes sense.

 

[SteveA]

30 minutes ago, Camden_yardbird said:

The proposition of many in this thread:

"We are rebuilding we don't need to worry about team record, but we should definitely replace former organizational top 10 prospects with triple A non-prospects who have hit well in less than 40 at bats."

Nothing about that makes sense.

 

It's the battle of hearts vs minds.   A lot of people went into the season saying the team would likely be bad, maybe even lose 100+ games or more.   And that they wanted to see prospects.

But losing isn't fun.   In February you could sit in your heated living room watching snow flurries outside and say this team will probably lose 100+ and they are OK with that as long as prospects move along.   But now, we are actually playing the games and suffering the losses, and even though we are on a pac to go 64-98 which is actually better than some people predicted -- it isn't fun to lose.   And people are getting reactive and anyone who isn't performing well 43 games into the season, they want to get rid of.   It's emotional, reactive, and not logical.   But people aren't always logical.

I still don't think there are too many people like you describe.   I think there are some people who are reacting to losing and wanting to make moves for the sake of making moves, out of frustration.   But for the most part, I don't think they are the people who said we don't need to worry about team record.   I think there are two different sets of people.

[Camden_yardbird]

13 minutes ago, SteveA said:

It's the battle of hearts vs minds.   A lot of people went into the season saying the team would likely be bad, maybe even lose 100+ games or more.   And that they wanted to see prospects.

But losing isn't fun.   In February you could sit in your heated living room watching snow flurries outside and say this team will probably lose 100+ and they are OK with that as long as prospects move along.   But now, we are actually playing the games and suffering the losses, and even though we are on a pac to go 64-98 which is actually better than some people predicted -- it isn't fun to lose.   And people are getting reactive and anyone who isn't performing well 43 games into the season, they want to get rid of.   It's emotional, reactive, and not logical.   But people aren't always logical.

I still don't think there are too many people like you describe.   I think there are some people who are reacting to losing and wanting to make moves for the sake of making moves, out of frustration.   But for the most part, I don't think they are the people who said we don't need to worry about team record.   I think there are two different sets of people.

I agree it is a hearts vs minds issue. I also think there are a lot of people expecting results after 2.5 years of Elias and not seeing much on the major league level.  We should be seeing something tangible by now if not at the team level than at least with some individual player success stories.

[NCRaven]

I hate using the word "lazy" about any player.  It assumes things that we as fans have no way to judge.  But, I think its fair to say that Severino is very poor at blocking balls and sometimes even catching them.  He is among league leaders in passed balls and wild pitches.  He also trails most catchers in caught base stealers.  I think Sisco is better than Severino in all of those categories.  Neither is particularly good at pitch framing.  And, I agree with Corn that calling games is an overrated aspect of catching in the current game.  Severino's presence behind the plate had little or nothing to do with Means' no-hitter, other than costing him a perfect game.  None of this makes Severino "lazy."  Just makes him not good.

[SteveA]

5 minutes ago, Camden_yardbird said:

I agree it is a hearts vs minds issue. I also think there are a lot of people expecting results after 2.5 years of Elias and not seeing much on the major league level.  We should be seeing something tangible by now if not at the team level than at least with some individual player success stories.

Mountcastle has picked it up lately.   Mullins and Mancini having good years.   Tyler Wells looks like a Rule 5 keeper.   Obviously Means.   Galvis is doing what we paid him to do.

The biggest disappointment is the combined performance so far of Kremer/Akin/Lowther/Zimmerman.   But the four of them have 80 innings total, that's really not a lot.   We need to pitch them, whether it's here or in Norfolk, a lot ore and see how things play out.   We supposedly have processes in place where pitchers can analyze what they are doing wrong and improve, now we have to give them a chance to do that.

Anyone who isn't encouraged by what they are seeing almost across the board at the AA, A, and low-A level simply isn't paying attention.