O's Ink Izturis

[itsernst]

Is this trade official yet or close to being official?

I have just read this (on RotoWorld referencing http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/bb/6156456.html) ...

Astros might make a late run at Izturis

The Orioles are believed to have a two-year, $6 million deal worked out with Izturis, but nothing has been signed. If the Astros choose to offer a bit more money and an additional year, they could potentially break up that agreement. December 10 - 10:24 a.m. ET

Source: Houston Chronicle

Time to bring back Miggy!

[McNulty]

I have never seen Hu play… you have me beat… congrats.

Did you know that Hu has a 764 career OPS in 2200 Minor League at-bats?

Did you know that Izturis has a 630 career OPS in 3165 Major League at-bats, and had a 630 OPS in 2000 Minor League at-bats?

Did you know that Hu is exactly 4 years younger than Izturis?

You nailed it on the head… when you used the word 'might'…. That word is still in Hu's vocablulary… he still has the potential to be something….

You already 'know' what Izturis is…. You understand that there is a discernable difference between the two right?

Yea, I said he might become a slight bit better than Izturis with the bat. Is that something you are willing to give up players for? Izturis cost us money. Hu would cost us players for the opportunity that he is slightly better with the bat (and 4 years younger).

His defense isn't going to be any better than Izturis. In fact, I'd argue that it will be below his enough to offset any gain you get with the stick (assuming the kid has a clean medical bill AND hits his projection).

Sometimes actually seeing these kids play really helps compliment the stat sheet.

Listen, I'm not advocating that we don't need a longer term solution. Because we do, and I don't think anyone is arguing against that. I'm just not so sure that Hu is going to cut the mustard in filling that hole for us (or anyone). The Dodgers themselves have soured on this guy quite a bit, and there is no better evaluator and developer of talent out there then they are.

[Lucky Jim]

Yea..Hu has always shown a better ability with the bat.

Plus, Hu's eye issue last year may have hurt his OPS greatly.

People continue to use these small sample sizes as reasons to not go after pie and Hu...Good thing people didn't do the same for Markakis.

Hu's upside is probably Izturis plus 50-100 points of OPS.

When will we see this upside? And how do we know his "eyes" hurt him so badly? He was abysmal last year. He may still be good, but he's not an immediate solution, and you won't find a single scout out there - I guarantee it - who thinks he is. Hu and ML-ready are used together only by the irresponsible and/or those who won't pay the price if they're wrong.

Besides, I never said we shouldn't go after Hu. Just the opposite. I said it's not a waste to pay Izturis while going after Hu because Hu is an enormous risk right now.

That's it. And that's all. The cost of signing Izturis is quantifiable. The cost of delaying signing a ML SS to go after Hu is impossible to pin down - there are risks all over the place: can we pry him? Is he ready? what happens if we can't pry him - who remains available after negotiations die? what happens if he's not ready & who do we sign?

Far better to sink the $3m a year on Izturis and move forward programatically - after Hu or Huever.

[ledzepp8]

I know they have not, because Furcal has not been signed….. If Furcal signs with LA…. It should be obvious to anyone that Hu is available…

Oh stop it. You have no way of KNOWING anything about any of this. Thinking, Guessing, or Assuming is not even in the same ballpark as Knowing.

[DrungoHazewood]

Did you know that Hu has a 764 career OPS in 2200 Minor League at-bats?

Did you know that Izturis has a 630 career OPS in 3165 Major League at-bats, and had a 630 OPS in 2000 Minor League at-bats?

You realize you're comparing apples to rutabagas, right? Hu is 24, going on 25. Izturis only has a handful of minor league at bats since he turned 21. When Hu was 21 he was in A ball. When Izturis was 21 he was putting up a nearly .700 OPS in AAA.

The reason Izturis' major league performances mirror his minor league numbers is that he was a baby when he got to the show. Hu is nearly a finished product right now. If he's a .600-.650 OPS player in the majors now (and that might be charitable) that's probably what he's going to end up as.

You can project growth in a talented 21-year-old rookie. You don't have nearly as much room in a 25-year-old rookie. Two comparable rookies, one 21 and one 25, probably favors the younger guy in career length, career counting stats, etc by a factor of four or five.

[DrungoHazewood]

Hu's upside is probably Izturis plus 50-100 points of OPS.

I don't think so. As I said in my previous post, the only reasons Hu outhit Izturis in the minors were league and four years of age. I think they're similar hitters, now and in the future.

[McNulty]

2005 - 21 years old, High A 777 OPS

2006 - 22 years old, Double A 666 OPS

2007 AA - 329 avg, 325 at-bats, 30 doubles, 5 triples, 6homers, 34 rbi, 380 obp, 508 slugging, 887 OPS

2007 AAA - 318 avg, 192 at-bats, 10 doubles, 1 triple, 8 homers, 28 rbi, 337 obp, 505 slugging, 842 OPS

2008 AAA - 295 avg, 156 at-bats, 5 doubles, 3 triples, 1 homer, 15 rbi, 323 obp, 385 slugging, 708 OPS

I disagree with your conclusion that he has really had a steady decline in OBP as he has moved up… and certainly disagree that it is 'worrisome.'

In 2006, in Double A as a 22 year old.. He had a 666 OPS…

The following year, he returns… and has an 887 OPS in AA…. He moves up to AAA, and produces an 842 OPS as a 23 year-old over 200 at-bats..

Did his On-base decrease from AA to AAA in 2007? Yes, it did… is it 'worrisome' when his SLG% stayed basically the same, even when factoring in the PCL?

You said he showed little to no power… In 2007 as a 23 year old in 500 AA and AAA at-bats… he had 60 XBH's…. That is no power?

You are right, he had a horrible 2008…. With vision problems… unless the vision is uncorrectable, that seems an obvious reason why the decrease occurred… even accounting for that, he still got ML experience… and posted an OPS in AAA that basically equates to what Izturis will produce in the Majors in 2009.

I'd respond, but it would do Drungo's post an injustice. He said it perfectly.

You realize you're comparing apples to rutabagas, right? Hu is 24, going on 25. Izturis only has a handful of minor league at bats since he turned 21. When Hu was 21 he was in A ball. When Izturis was 21 he was putting up a nearly .700 OPS in AAA.

The reason Izturis' major league performances mirror his minor league numbers is that he was a baby when he got to the show. Hu is nearly a finished product right now. If he's a .600-.650 OPS player in the majors now (and that might be charitable) that's probably what he's going to end up as.

You can project growth in a talented 21-year-old rookie. You don't have nearly as much room in a 25-year-old rookie. Two comparable rookies, one 21 and one 25, probably favors the younger guy in career length, career counting stats, etc by a factor of four or five.

[Rockbird]

We signed the dog whisperer!?

[Enjoy Terror]

Nobody is saying much about the situation arising that a better shortstop arrives in Baltimore before CI's 2-years are up that he makes a pretty solid bench option. This goes along with the whole thing that signing Izturis doesn't preclude that the Orioles will stop looking for a better shortstop option. Or a shortstoption.

[ChaosLex]

We signed the dog whisperer!?

:clap3::rofl:

[Lucky Jim]

Drungo you make a great point… Izturis' time in the Minors, and the Majority of his 2000 Minor League at-bats were at a younger age vs the 2200 Minor League at-bats that Hu has had…

Izturis broke into the Majors at a younger age… and at that younger age, had more projectable growth.

However, taking all of that into account… this is what you know now…

Hu and Izturis share the same birthday… Feb 10th… one turns 25, the other turns 29.

One has had 3100 Major League at-bats to prove what he is, the other has not…

One still has the potential to be something… the other does not.

Hmmm. Well, I don't know about YOUR financial planning, but in times of fiscal uncertainty, I've got no problem going with a low-risk, low-yield investment while I survey the market for other options. You keep playing your scratch-wins, Stoner. I'm sure that $55,000 jackpot will hit!

[Frobby]

For all we know, MacPhail explored the possibility of getting Hu or another major league-ready prospect and concluded the price we'd have to pay wasn't worth it.

I'm not sweating this one. MacPhail and Trembley both wanted an excellent defensive SS, and they got one. On to bigger issues.

[Sports Guy]

I don't think so. As I said in my previous post, the only reasons Hu outhit Izturis in the minors were league and four years of age. I think they're similar hitters, now and in the future.

Good point about the age...I honestly didn't look that up.

That being said, power is power and Hu has shown the ability to display more of it.

Now, will that carry over to the majors? I don't know but I know I would prefer to have Hu and to find that out.

As i said, the Izturis deal is going to work out fine for the team...he will be worth the contract...That's not what I am personally debating.

[ledzepp8]

For all we know, MacPhail explored the possibility of getting Hu or another major league-ready prospect and concluded the price we'd have to pay wasn't worth it.

I'm not sweating this one. MacPhail and Trembley both wanted an excellent defensive SS, and they got one. On to bigger issues.

No, no, no!!! Obviously you didn't hear, crstoner KNOWS that AM didn't explore all other possibilities in regards to Shortstop.

[Lucky Jim]

Good point about the age...I honestly didn't look that up.

That being said, power is power and Hu has shown the ability to display more of it.

Now, will that carry over to the majors? I don't know but I know I would prefer to have Hu and to find that out.

As i said, the Izturis deal is going to work out fine for the team...he will be worth the contract...That's not what I am personally debating.

To be fair - you're a perfectionist. And that's a good thing. It's just hard to know what factors led to making a decision at a given moment.