Joey Ortiz 2022

[RZNJ]

23 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Here you go.

 

 

Fair enough.  He loses value as a 1B.    Still, for me disappointment would have more to do with his bat.

[Just Regular]

In the space of two paragraphs in the writeup, Longenhagen drew a big contrast between Ortiz, praised as a pure up the middle glove the shift will help play up, and Westburg, batched in with a group of guys he threw so much shade as to call "shift-enabled" prospects.

His BOARD has a two grade separation between 50 Ortiz and 45 Westburg.    Between them, he has a "45+" group of another 35-40 guys.

 

[RZNJ]

12 minutes ago, Just Regular said:

In the space of two paragraphs in the writeup, Longenhagen drew a big contrast between Ortiz, praised as a pure up the middle glove the shift will help play up, and Westburg, batched in with a group of guys he threw so much shade as to call "shift-enabled" prospects.

His BOARD has a two grade separation between 50 Ortiz and 45 Westburg.    Between them, he has a "45+" group of another 35-40 guys.

 

I have seen neither play extensively on defense.  I think it's been clear from reports that Ortiz is considered a plus defensive SS at the ML level and possibly an elite 2B.    Westburg has been considered "adequate" at SS and perhaps average at 2B.   We've heard many conflicting reports on Westburg's arm.   I've seen it described anywhere from a 50 (average) to a 60 (plus).    No doubt that Mateo at SS and Ortiz at 2B, along with Henderson at 3B, gives you the best potential defense with plus to possibly elite defense at all 3 positions.

Edited October 7, 2022 by RZNJ

[Frobby]

9 minutes ago, Just Regular said:

In the space of two paragraphs in the writeup, Longenhagen drew a big contrast between Ortiz, praised as a pure up the middle glove the shift will help play up, and Westburg, batched in with a group of guys he threw so much shade as to call "shift-enabled" prospects.

His BOARD has a two grade separation between 50 Ortiz and 45 Westburg.    Between them, he has a "45+" group of another 35-40 guys.

 

It’s funny, I’ve never thought of Westburg as “shift enabled.”   But putting that comment aside, I don’t know if you should put stock in that 45 grade for Westburg.  My impression is he has re-graded the players he’s put into his top 100, but hasn’t gone back to re-grade everybody else.   For example, I’m having a little trouble believing he’ll have Norby at 40+ the next time he does a full report on the Orioles’ prosoects.  

[Jim'sKid26]

1 hour ago, Can_of_corn said:

Would be pretty disappointing if the O's spent a 1-2 pick on a guy that couldn't stick in the outfield.

Perhaps. However, if you will recall his fielding grade out of college was 30 with a future value = 50. 

[Tony-OH]

On 10/7/2022 at 6:04 PM, RZNJ said:

I have seen neither play extensively on defense.  I think it's been clear from reports that Ortiz is considered a plus defensive SS at the ML level and possibly an elite 2B.    Westburg has been considered "adequate" at SS and perhaps average at 2B.   We've heard many conflicting reports on Westburg's arm.   I've seen it described anywhere from a 50 (average) to a 60 (plus).    No doubt that Mateo at SS and Ortiz at 2B, along with Henderson at 3B, gives you the best potential defense with plus to possibly elite defense at all 3 positions.

Westburg has 45 arm and that's why they think he's better suited for 2B. I agree with your best defensive infield alignment. That particular defensive alignment would be great because you'd be playing a legitimate major league SS (Ortiz) at second base where he's GG caliber.

[RZNJ]

37 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

Westburg has 45 arm and that's why they think he's better suited for 2B. I agree with your best defensive infield alignment. That particular defensive alignment would be great because you'd be playing a legitimate major league SS (Ortiz) at second base where he's GG caliber.

Tony I trust you.  However, I can copy and paste various reports from Fangraphs, Baseball, America, MLB Pipeline that all have higher grades on his arm with comments to go along with it.    There's definitely a lot of conflicting statements between you and the other sites.

 

MLB Pipeline has his arm graded at 55 with this blurb.

Defense isn’t Westburg’s calling card given his size and average speed, but he’s a reliable defender at short and athletic enough to move around if need be. His arm strength is plus

Baseball America says this.

He's a plus runner with the instincts and athleticism to play shortstop in the big leagues and the arm for third base, making him an asset anywhere on the infield.

 

Fangraphs agrees with you.  They give him a 45 on his arm and say this.

 But he moves well for his size and can play an acceptable shortstop at a 45-grade clip while providing plus defense at both second and third base.

Edited October 14, 2022 by RZNJ

[Frobby]

I was listening to an interview of one of the Orioles’ minor league play by play guys (I think it was Adam Pohl) and he said Ortiz might be the best defensive SS in all the minor leagues.   Obviously it’s a potentially biased perspective, but that’s still very high praise from someone who’s seen a lot of minor league baseball.  So, that is to be considered when thinking about how much we’d lose defensively if Ortiz replaced Mateo.  

[RZNJ]

1 hour ago, Frobby said:

I was listening to an interview of one of the Orioles’ minor league play by play guys (I think it was Adam Pohl) and he said Ortiz might be the best defensive SS in all the minor leagues.   Obviously it’s a potentially biased perspective, but that’s still very high praise from someone who’s seen a lot of minor league baseball.  So, that is to be considered when thinking about how much we’d lose defensively if Ortiz replaced Mateo.  

Mateo would be proud of a play like this.

 

[RZNJ]

How about this one from ST?

 

[Sports Guy]

1 hour ago, Frobby said:

I was listening to an interview of one of the Orioles’ minor league play by play guys (I think it was Adam Pohl) and he said Ortiz might be the best defensive SS in all the minor leagues.   Obviously it’s a potentially biased perspective, but that’s still very high praise from someone who’s seen a lot of minor league baseball.  So, that is to be considered when thinking about how much we’d lose defensively if Ortiz replaced Mateo.  

I don’t think Pohl has any credibility when it comes to stuff like that.

[RZNJ]

Brandon Hyde from ST.

Special play,” Orioles manager Brandon Hyde said. “He’s a really good defender. I’ve watched him here for up until major league camp the last few weeks. Love the way he plays defense, got great feet, great arm. It’s accurate. Super active defensively. He’s got really good instincts. He’s got a chance to be a good player.”

[Tony-OH]

1 hour ago, RZNJ said:

Tony I trust you.  However, I can copy and paste various reports from Fangraphs, Baseball, America, MLB Pipeline that all have higher grades on his arm with comments to go along with it.    There's definitely a lot of conflicting statements between you and the other sites.

 

MLB Pipeline has his arm graded at 55 with this blurb.

Defense isn’t Westburg’s calling card given his size and average speed, but he’s a reliable defender at short and athletic enough to move around if need be. His arm strength is plus

Baseball America says this.

He's a plus runner with the instincts and athleticism to play shortstop in the big leagues and the arm for third base, making him an asset anywhere on the infield.

 

Fangraphs agrees with you.  They give him a 45 on his arm and say this.

 But he moves well for his size and can play an acceptable shortstop at a 45-grade clip while providing plus defense at both second and third base.

I agree with Fangraphs. That's a very accurate analysis of Westburg. His athleticism and quickness makes him have the ability to move and play adequate defense around the infield. I think he could be a plus 2B, but I think his arm would make him just adequate at 3B because he would struggle to make those plays where a plus arm is needed.

He also has pretty good hands overall. But I'd disagree with anyone thinks that he has a plus arm. He has maybe a 50 arm for 2B, 40 arm for SS, 45 for 3B. 

[Tony-OH]

BTW, Ortiz is probably the best defender at SS that I've seen come through the system. He's what they hoped Grenier would have been (different scouting directors and GM). 

 

[Frobby]

34 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

I don’t think Pohl has any credibility when it comes to stuff like that.

I don’t know.  He was somewhat critical of other players.  For example, he said Mayo won’t be a 3B in the majors.   But you may be right.  I don’t know much about him, other than to hear his voice sometimes when the Baysox post game highlights on Twitter.