White, Strasburg, and Gibson: Hyperabduction, Hyperabduction, and Clean Respectively

[TJ Wrangler]

Well said - I get the difference between the large muscles of the legs and back versus the forearms and elbows and the problems these differences can cause. I consciously "snapped" my wrist to get more movement on the overhand delivery. I compare this to throwing from shortstop, for example, with just a "normal" power throw. But, I was not a great hurler and I don't want to debate the mechanics here. I still don't "see" how you can adjust the positions, but that has no relevance either. I just wanted to know if you thought you could coach the change and you say you can so that makes sense to me.

This conversation is extremely interesting!

I also wonder about our minor league shortstop Greg Miclat and his arm problems. I assume that he can get his full strength back but wonder if someone like you also reviews throwing mechanics for position players.

Well to answer that, you definitely can coach pretty much anything about a pitcher's delivery in my opinion. I guess a pitcher could consciously snap their wrist, but I just don't know if it helps at all or, if anything, it is actually harmful.

Pitching is essentially throwing except much higher risk and with little margin for error, so I would imagine a thrower would get their arm up the same way, step towards their target, and would exhibit less shoulder tilt to throw side arm (shortstop/infield) or more shoulder tilt to throw overhand (outfield).

Cesar Izturis

Ichiro

[BRob51]

I really appreciate this stuff dude. I'm a high school pitcher (submariner) and really am getting into mechanics. I was wondering what you can tell me about submariners, cus almost every coach I've talked to has been mostly useless. I've noticed that my landing (I'm right handed by the way) leaves me off balance, kind of falling toward third base. It seems to me like that'd be bad, but it somehow is the only way that I can throw strikes.

By the way, that sucks about Alex White. Hopefully he proves you wrong

[Stotle]

I really appreciate this stuff dude. I'm a high school pitcher (submariner) and really am getting into mechanics. I was wondering what you can tell me about submariners, cus almost every coach I've talked to has been mostly useless. I've noticed that my landing (I'm right handed by the way) leaves me off balance, kind of falling toward third base. It seems to me like that'd be bad, but it somehow is the only way that I can throw strikes.

By the way, that sucks about Alex White. Hopefully he proves you wrong

Justin may know better, but I've found it's tough to avoid a 3B fall-off when you have so much lean (tilt) in your upper body. One thing that helps (if you are flexible enough) is to increase your stride and try to get closer to 90-degrees in your plant leg. By lowering your center of gravity you'll offset the tilt a bit.

[BRob51]

Justin may know better, but I've found it's tough to avoid a 3B fall-off when you have so much lean (tilt) in your upper body. One thing that helps (if you are flexible enough) is to increase your stride and try to get closer to 90-degrees in your plant leg. By lowering your center of gravity you'll offset the tilt a bit.

Interesting...

I've been watching film of Byung-Hyun Kim, and he has a big fall off towards 3B. I'll try the longer stride tomorrow in my pen. Thanks.

[Stotle]

Interesting...

I've been watching film of Byung-Hyun Kim, and he has a big fall off towards 3B. I'll try the longer stride tomorrow in my pen. Thanks.

I took a quick look since you mentioned him. He's a little more upright than Bradford, for example, but he also doesn't come with a true submarine slot:

Kim

Bradford

Kim seems to counter the tilt by over-emphasizing his follow-through with his drive leg (which I assume comes from his hard drive in his stride). Bradford is much more under-control in his follow-through.

[BRob51]

I took a quick look since you mentioned him. He's a little more upright than Bradford, for example, but he also doesn't come with a true submarine slot:

Kim

Bradford

Kim seems to counter the tilt by over-emphasizing his follow-through with his drive leg (which I assume comes from his hard drive in his stride). Bradford is much more under-control in his follow-through.

Bradford, for me, is the goal. His motion is what I'm striving for. He lands closer to 3B like you would expect but he has relatively decent balance in this landing. I wonder what grips Bradford uses for his secondary pitches? I've been trying to get a frisbee slider, but it's not easy.

[L.D.Blair]

Bradford, for me, is the goal. His motion is what I'm striving for. He lands closer to 3B like you would expect but he has relatively decent balance in this landing. I wonder what grips Bradford uses for his secondary pitches? I've been trying to get a frisbee slider, but it's not easy.

Seen any film of Quisenberry? Or Tekulve?

I'm not sure, but Chris O'Leary may have those two. He's got quite a film library there.

Off topic, but did I ever mention that sometimes Cy Young would drop down and throw submarine? (Not something I ever saw, but read somewhere.)

[L.D.Blair]

Bradford, for me, is the goal. His motion is what I'm striving for. He lands closer to 3B like you would expect but he has relatively decent balance in this landing. I wonder what grips Bradford uses for his secondary pitches? I've been trying to get a frisbee slider, but it's not easy.

Here's a video for you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7N8EYtlHxq8

It's not Kent Tekulve, but a Japanese pitcher (obviously) who is sometimes called the Japanese Dylan Paul.

[BRob51]

Here's a video for you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7N8EYtlHxq8

It's not Kent Tekulve, but a Japanese pitcher (obviously) who is sometimes called the Japanese Dylan Paul.

That's the guy I was telling you about, Shunsuke Watanabe, Mr. Submarine. I would love to throw like him.

[L.D.Blair]

That's the guy I was telling you about, Shunsuke Watanabe, Mr. Submarine. I would love to throw like him.

I do not want to see any physics problems involving Mr. Submarine. Even if we are allowed to ignore wind resistance.

It would be too confusing.

Seriously, I didn't know you ever brought him up. He's pretty good. He's a starter, too. That's pretty amazing. I wouldn't have thought you have enough skin on your knuckles to throw 7 or 8 innings.

[BRob51]

I do not want to see any physics problems involving Mr. Submarine. Even if we are allowed to ignore wind resistance.

It would be too confusing.

Seriously, I didn't know you ever brought him up. He's pretty good. He's a starter, too. That's pretty amazing. I wouldn't have thought you have enough skin on your knuckles to throw 7 or 8 innings.

I think I emailed you about him when we were discussing Chris O'Leary's videos. Either way, we won't be doing any Mr. Submarine problems, unless of course we treat his arm as a wave and have to find the crest. He stays remarkably upright and balanced for a guy with that low an arm slot.

[TJ Wrangler]

The big issue with throwing submarine is that when your back bends like that while you are getting hip/trunk separation, you are setting yourself up for back problems. Otherwise, the mechanics of the actual throw are similar. If you want, PM me a few photos of your delivery and I'll see what I can find. Most of the pitching gurus won't cover submariners, but my theory is that the actual mechanics are the same as a regular pitcher, just that the shoulder tilt allows for a low arm slot.

[Pruke]

Fascinating thread - I'm learning a lot.

I wonder what Orioles have had this 'hyperabduction', if they changed it and if they were ever injured as a result.

I'm wondering specifically if any of those young guys who got hurt in the minors and sidetracked a few years ago...

Not sure if anyone knows this, but I was curious....

[TJ Wrangler]

Fascinating thread - I'm learning a lot.

I wonder what Orioles have had this 'hyperabduction', if they changed it and if they were ever injured as a result.

I'm wondering specifically if any of those young guys who got hurt in the minors and sidetracked a few years ago...

Not sure if anyone knows this, but I was curious....

A quick idea to pinpoint who has hyperabduction or timing problems would be to look at pitchers who have torn their labrums or have suffered other major or frequent shoulder issues. Elbow issues are usually caused by frequent and excessive suppination in the delivery, but timing problems also could cause elbow issues.

Just a general idea, obviously it won't be true for every injury. Overuse and flukes can also attribute to injury, or a pitcher could just be lucky.

[TJ Wrangler]

For some reason I completely missed these two replies. Sorry guys.

Well, Justin, I certainly didn't mean to imply anything with regards to abilities to make drafting decisions. You are certainly very adept at breaking down pitchers and pointing to areas that could be of concern. Further, I really agree with you with regards to Gibson -- I think whoever ends-up with him will be in solid shape considering the projectibility in his frame and stuff and what you have had to say about his mechanics.

As Craw said, I prefer to use the "red flag" test (depending on how big the flag is) to help make a decision between two similar talents. I think the "red flag" test is incredibly important when you are talking about FA contracts for the sole reason that you're talking about much, much more money.

That's not to say that the draft isn't important, but there are developmental hurdles in addition to potential injury due to mechanics. Accordingly, I still prefer to take the guy with the most talent that seems most likely to contribute at the ML-level.

As a pitcher, let me ask you this. How conceivable do you think it is to tweak mechanics of a college pitcher (as opposed to HS) to the point that they aren't as problematic from an analytical standpoint? I tend to think it's more difficult than most realize, but not impossible. Would you draft White and focus on trying to correct (as much as you can, anyway) the hyperabduction?

White's problems start right from the moment he breaks his hands. There just isn't much to like about his delivery, and since he will probably be ridden heavily this season, I would probably avoid him all together. As you said, any mechanical changes will probably be difficult to make on a successful college pitcher, so in order to think about such drastic change, White would have to be totally on board. I think I would avoid him based on those reasons and go for Gibson or Matzek.

Gibson needs to clean up his step. He picks up his leg then immediately drops it down with little forward movement. This could be cleaned up. He scrap loads. Also, watch him throw. He approaches the point of hyperabduction then rolls his elbow slightly down. That is going to put strain on the back end of the shoulder. He finishes well.

So, yeah, I would not call his motion clean.

I also think if Strasburg's hyperabduction is making you select Gibson over him . . . then you are putting a bit much confidence in biomechanics with respect to what effects we can actually tie to them. Another comparison is like when people tried to use PAPs to predict injury. Just does not work well. Too many variables are in play for a single metric to identify performance outcome.

EDIT: Read your reply to Stotle so ignore the draft part.

No worries, sorry for not being more clear in the first place.

I'll definitely take a more detailed look at Gibson overall. Everything I've seen of him though suggests that there is no timing problem and everything is right when it needs to be. If everything you said is true, it sounds more like wasted movement that can be fixed with good coaching rather than fundemental mechanical issues that would take a lot of effort and his cooperation to change.

You and Stotle obviously do your homework and I like reading everything you guys do. If I'm wrong about Gibson, then I'll thank you in advance for making me check up on my studies and correct my mistakes. Part of scouting and coaching is that you constantly are learning new things and as a result, you are almost forced to change your mind until you find what is right and stick with it. Hopefully whoever we end up is solid at whatever they do and very receptive to proper coaching.