Please stop pitching Cano in the ninth

[Sports Guy]

2 minutes ago, banks703 said:

Nope. That’s not what I’m suggesting. What I mean is that they could have moved him to the pen sooner.

I like Flaherty. I’m on record as stating that I hope that he’s a candidate to return in 24 but he’s been largely ineffective as a starter for the O’s. I would rather have him in the pen right now with Irvin getting innings as a starter than to have optioned Cole. 

Well he is in the pen now And they didn’t choose him over Irvin. They sent down Irvin because he was going to be unavailable for 2-3 days and they were worried about being short handed vs TB. It was an incredibly short sighted move and many of us said so at the time.

And we don’t need him as a starter right now because we have 5 of them.

All of that said, this is largely rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. Now of these guys are that good.

I have been saying for a while that this offseason, they need to overhaul the pen and they need 2 starters.  Everyone points to the win total and it’s great…but things are different without Bautista And I just don’t believe the overall talent on this roster(even with Bautista) is that of a 100 win team. I think it’s more 85-90win, borderline playoff/6th seed type team. 

That’s still an excellent team and a better one than I thought they would be this year but not to the level they are in terms of wins.

The talent just isn’t there in the pitching side of things.

[banks703]

13 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Well he is in the pen now And they didn’t choose him over Irvin. They sent down Irvin because he was going to be unavailable for 2-3 days and they were worried about being short handed vs TB. It was an incredibly short sighted move and many of us said so at the time.

And we don’t need him as a starter right now because we have 5 of them.

All of that said, this is largely rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. Now of these guys are that good.

I have been saying for a while that this offseason, they need to overhaul the pen and they need 2 starters.  Everyone points to the win total and it’s great…but things are different without Bautista And I just don’t believe the overall talent on this roster(even with Bautista) is that of a 100 win team. I think it’s more 85-90win, borderline playoff/6th seed type team. 

That’s still an excellent team and a better one than I thought they would be this year but not to the level they are in terms of wins.

The talent just isn’t there in the pitching side of things.

They did choose JF over Irvin when they went back to the 5-man rotation and put Irvin in the pen on 09/06.

JF was still in the rotation and got two more starts before he was sent to the pen.

If you want to call it semantics, sure but I am not sure how else putting Irvin in the pen while keeping JF in the rotation isn’t choosing one guy over the other. I mean the news was literally written in the Sun that Irvin was the ‘odd-man out’ of a five-man rotation of Bradish, GrayRod, Gibson, Kremer and Flaherty.  

Edited September 23, 2023 by banks703

[ChosenOne21]

1 hour ago, banks703 said:

Look at inherited runners and their scoring % also. The numbers are a little better than how he’s pitched in September but they’re still heavily propped by his ridiculous first six weeks or so.

Since Felix went down Cano has thrown 9 innings of 6.00 ERA ball and he’s been bailed out A LOT by some amazing defense.

 

Boy I wish Felix didn't snap Cano's UCL along with his own. Surely you aren't suggesting Felix going down has anything to do with Cano's rough patch.

A little better? He has an ERA of like 3.13 since May 19th, when he first gave up a run this year. He has a 8.10 in September. 

 

Quote

In this span:

K/9 is down to 2

BB/9 up to 3

HR/9 up to 1 

You realize we're talking about eight games here, five of which he didn't give up any earned runs in. Boy, I would hate to work for some of you guys. Be amazing most of the time, have one bad stretch and get demoted.

Quote

Again I’m not necessarily criticizing Cano. My rant is that for some reason they’re beholden to Cano in the ninth even when the matchups do not favor it. Without Felix every one of the other guys should be used to matchup, Cano included.

What matchups? Righties are OPSing .566 off him. Lefties are at .688. Sure, he's worse against lefties, but .688 is pretty good. Like, maybe I'd consider Hall or Coulomb over him if three out of the four next batters were lefties, but it's not like lefties are his kryptonite. There are probably somewhere between one and three dozen relief pitchers in the world you could make a case are better than Yennier Cano this year. If Cano needs to be matchup-ed then so does just about every reliever in the sport.

Quote

BTW he has six blown saves, which is .. uhhh A LOT for a guy who was the primary setup guy for 8/10 of the season. 

BTW Felix Bautista has six blown saves, which is .. uhhh A LOT for a guy who was the primary closer for 8/10 of the season. 

[banks703]

9 minutes ago, ChosenOne21 said:

BTW Felix Bautista has six blown saves, which is .. uhhh A LOT for a guy who was the primary closer for 8/10 of the season. 

I don’t think that this is making the point that you think it is. 

[Sports Guy]

13 minutes ago, banks703 said:

They did choose JF over Irvin when they went back to the 5-man rotation and put Irvin in the pen on 09/06.

JF was still in the rotation and got two more starts before he was sent to the pen.

If you want to call it semantics, sure but I am not sure how else putting Irvin in the pen while keeping JF in the rotation isn’t choosing one guy over the other. I mean the news was literally written in the Sun that Irvin was the ‘odd-man out’ of a five-man rotation of Bradish, GrayRod, Gibson, Kremer and Flaherty.  

I mean, you can also say they chose Means and Gibson over him too. 
 

End of the day, for all of a few starts, they went back to a 5 man rotation and put the 5 best guys  they had in the rotation and put Irvin, a guy who has been far better in the pen than rotation this year, in the pen to give it some length.

That decision didn’t hurt the team. The decision to send him down likely has.

[ChosenOne21]

1 hour ago, tntoriole said:

I have seen it lol .. Go back to Jim Johnson threads or Zach even or Jorge last year.  We are a fickle bunch  lol

The point is that right now YC is pitching in a different role as closer than he did all year and that yes he was outstanding and amazing in early months, but he was in the noncloser role… and this is late September and he has not been nearly as effective in the closer role.  

Jim Johnson had like three years in a thirteen year career that were close to as good as Yennier Cano has been this year. And I don't remember people being this hard on him in any of them.

I don't ever remember anyone ever saying not to pitch Zach Britton in the ninth. I will eat TWO of my Orioles hats if you can find a thread about removing Britton as closer in a year where his ERA was under 2.50.

Jorge, yeah, there were some doubters, but I don't remember it being quite as strong as it has been for Cano this year. It feels like everyone was worshipping the ground he walked on and then as soon as he gave up a run everyone decided he was mid at best.

[Sports Guy]

Just now, banks703 said:

I don’t think that this is making the point that you think it is. 

It’s also a point that is being made without the proper context and facts of some of those blown saves.

[ChosenOne21]

2 minutes ago, banks703 said:

I don’t think that this is making the point that you think it is. 

Of course it is. You think Felix is great, and you used Cano's blown saves total to drag him when Felix has blown just as many.

Edited September 23, 2023 by ChosenOne21

[ChosenOne21]

1 minute ago, Sports Guy said:

It’s also a point that is being made without the proper context and facts of some of those blown saves.

Okay, we'll give him one back for Ryan McKenna.

He's blown one more save than the best relief pitcher in the sport this year. Crucify him!

[Can_of_corn]

5 minutes ago, ChosenOne21 said:

Jim Johnson had like three years in a thirteen year career that were close to as good as Yennier Cano has been this year. And I don't remember people being this hard on him in any of them.

I don't ever remember anyone ever saying not to pitch Zach Britton in the ninth. I will eat TWO of my Orioles hats if you can find a thread about removing Britton as closer in a year where his ERA was under 2.50.

Jorge, yeah, there were some doubters, but I don't remember it being quite as strong as it has been for Cano this year. It feels like everyone was worshipping the ground he walked on and then as soon as he gave up a run everyone decided he was mid at best.

I do.  Folks were pretty rough on him during the 2013 season and he had 50 saves that year.

 

[banks703]

7 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

It’s also a point that is being made without the proper context and facts of some of those blown saves.

Right.  At least one was the ghost runner and another was the McKenna drop. I have it in my head that there BS were not on Felix but I don’t remember exactly why for the third. 

[ChosenOne21]

3 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

I do.  Folks were pretty rough on him during the 2013 season and he had 50 saves that year.

 

He could be frustrating at times, and I was certainly frustrated with him at times and didn't think he was as good as the 51 saves indicated. It was a long time ago. Maybe it was this bad, but I don't remember it being so.

Obviously Johnson had a thirteen year career and a pretty nice prime while Cano is in his second season, but I think when all is said and done Cano is a better reliever than Johnson.

Edited September 23, 2023 by ChosenOne21

[ChosenOne21]

2 minutes ago, banks703 said:

Right.  At least one was the ghost runner and another was the McKenna drop. I have it in my head that there BS were not on Felix but I don’t remember exactly why for the third. 

We can do this for Cano, too. Pretty sure at least one of them was the defense letting him down.

[tntoriole]

12 minutes ago, ChosenOne21 said:

Jim Johnson had like three years in a thirteen year career that were close to as good as Yennier Cano has been this year. And I don't remember people being this hard on him in any of them.

I don't ever remember anyone ever saying not to pitch Zach Britton in the ninth. I will eat TWO of my Orioles hats if you can find a thread about removing Britton as closer in a year where his ERA was under 2.50.

Jorge, yeah, there were some doubters, but I don't remember it being quite as strong as it has been for Cano this year. It feels like everyone was worshipping the ground he walked on and then as soon as he gave up a run everyone decided he was mid at best.

Hmmm memory is a funny thing.  When Jim Johnson blew 13 saves out of 63 in 2013 , he was crucified on this board lol 

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, ChosenOne21 said:

He could be frustrating at times, and I was certainly frustrated with him at times and didn't think he was as good as the 51 saves indicated. It was a long time ago. Maybe it was this bad, but I don't remember it being so.

Obviously Johnson had a thirteen year career and a pretty nice prime while Cano is in his second season, but I think when all is said and done Cano is a better reliever than Johnson.

It was 2012 when he went 51 out of 54.  Folks loved him that year.  In 2013 we went 50 out of 59.