Can We Talk About Next Year Now?

[Bemorewins]

16 minutes ago, mcneck said:

1. Angelos

2. Because it was his rookie year and a ton of guys need more than a half year as a part time players to get their feet under them. He was our minor league POY in this system. That says a lot about his potential.

3. Of course he can afford it but he won't do it. He never does. Last offseason was also an ideal time to add a piece or 2 but here we are. I'll believe it when I see it with him. Our best chance at success under him sadly is to go the way of the Ray's and stack talent and cycle it through every few years.

I understand that you may have an affinity for Jordan Westburg and that you value his minor league player of the year award that he won. But he is not in the same caliber of talent as Henderson, Adley, Grayson, or Holliday. Those 4 have superstar/elite talent potential. I have never seen, read, or heard Jordan Westberg described that way.

Also, the Rays approach works for them because they are able to consistently year over year to develop and have elite level pitching. We have not shown anything even close to this ability. IMO in order to win in October you have to be elite offensively or pitching. We are not there right now.

[LookinUp]

5 hours ago, OriolesMagic83 said:

GrayRod was really good for a little over 2 months.  He could regress and revert to old habits over the winter.  

GrayRod "reverting to old habits" would be "reverting" to the #1 pitching prospect in baseball. He's a stud. Just pray for health.

I think this team pencils in Westburg, Henderson and Ortiz as the starting infield, keeps Mateo and signs a lefty like Frazier for platoon reasons. I assume they wait for Holliday until the second half, but that's the huge question.

I think we hire another Gibson/Lyles type, maybe a slightly higher profile, and rely on our top two to take the next step. I think McDermott and Povich are 2nd half call ups.

I think the economy will play into this. I don't expect big spending outside of the elite guys and a couple of teams. 

The improvement will come from within, and that means 2024 could be a step back from 2023. But maybe we're peaking come September next year, or maybe 2025 is the big year where the young guys are established and peaking pros.

[OriolesMagic83]

12 minutes ago, LookinUp said:

GrayRod "reverting to old habits" would be "reverting" to the #1 pitching prospect in baseball. He's a stud. Just pray for health.

I think this team pencils in Westburg, Henderson and Ortiz as the starting infield, keeps Mateo and signs a lefty like Frazier for platoon reasons. I assume they wait for Holliday until the second half, but that's the huge question.

I think we hire another Gibson/Lyles type, maybe a slightly higher profile, and rely on our top two to take the next step. I think McDermott and Povich are 2nd half call ups.

I think the economy will play into this. I don't expect big spending outside of the elite guys and a couple of teams. 

The improvement will come from within, and that means 2024 could be a step back from 2023. But maybe we're peaking come September next year, or maybe 2025 is the big year where the young guys are established and peaking pros.

What does the economy have to do with the O's.  The economy was very good for the O's last year, the O's/Angelos had a $80 million proffit.  It should be even bigger this year with another tiny payroll and big bump in attendance and I assume other revenue streams plus playoff money. 

[Morgan423]

In an ideal world for me, a solid off season would include:

1) A consistent, #2 or #3ish free agent starter to shore up the rotation.  No more bottom of the rotation Lyleses or Gibsons...  the lack of rotation depth and consistency has been revealed to be a big weakness in a post-season series format

2) A decent FA closer option, instead of "let's let existing players fight it out"

3) Trading off the 1 or 2 most underperforming parts of the old guard, to make way for the youth that's knocking on the door

4) A solid acquisition, through FA or trade, of an additional impact bat in the line up.

These are what feel like our biggest needs for the off season. Whether our stupidly cheap owner actually lets the GM spend any money whatsoever remains to be seen, but my guts says probably not.

[OriolesMagic83]

4 hours ago, baltfan said:

I agree there is more to be spent and he needs to step up in the offseason this year at least for pitching.  You can argue to wait on adding a bat while you try to sort out what you have given the amount of top prospects at AAA

We need someone who knows how to "perculate" while all the good free agents sign.  Is Dan Duquette doing anything?  Special assistant to Elias.

[RZNJ]

4 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

That's what they should have been doing the past three seasons.

Instead we got Frazier.

They should be past the point where they are seeing what they got.

Yeah, they keep doing everything wrong!   

[OriolesMagic83]

6 hours ago, Moose Milligan said:

How about that!

Maybe JA had his own champagne celebration.

[EddeeEddee]

5 hours ago, baltfan said:

Funny enough I think Hicks is the most likely to come back.  He is cheap as hell, selective, and apparently, they like him in the clubhouse.  

And the outfield is where we have the most questions position player wise.

[EddeeEddee]

5 hours ago, Bemorewins said:

IMO we should certainly be looking to upgrade over O’Hearn. 2023 was the best that he will most likely ever be. And still in time of the season, he gave us next to nothing. 

Mayo or Kjerstad could be the upgrade over O'Hearn, though I'm not sure what the timeline for Mayo is thought to be.  O'Hearn could be a good trade candidate, though because he's cheap and had a good 2023 I think it's probably he'll be on the OD roster.  As much as this team needs a big name bat I have no doubt Elias, whether he goes for a big name or not, will be looking for another Ryan O'Hearn or another Aaron Hicks.

[maybenxtyr]

10 hours ago, baltfan said:

He doesn't care more about money, he just doesn't have as much as most owners.  This team is his source of income.  He isn't like many other owners.  If he takes a loss or breaks even, he really feels it.  

I'm guessing this is sarcasm? I hope it is anyways.

[mcneck]

3 hours ago, Bemorewins said:

I understand that you may have an affinity for Jordan Westburg and that you value his minor league player of the year award that he won. But he is not in the same caliber of talent as Henderson, Adley, Grayson, or Holliday. Those 4 have superstar/elite talent potential. I have never seen, read, or heard Jordan Westberg described that way.

Also, the Rays approach works for them because they are able to consistently year over year to develop and have elite level pitching. We have not shown anything even close to this ability. IMO in order to win in October you have to be elite offensively or pitching. We are not there right now.

I never said he was on the same level. He is just one of the young position players on the roster with at least a fair amount of upside left. If he could have an .800 OPS and play a solid 2B that would be very valuable to this team and would basically make him a top 5-10 2B. He's shown he has a good eye at the plate and good power in the minors that has yet to show in the majors. I'm not sure I understand the negativity towards him. He is a very solid prospect and could definitely be a piece going forward

Regarding the pitching I feel like the approach has been different. We aren't drafting pitching as high as TB has. That being said we have brought Bradish and Grayrod through the system and have fixed Hall as well as further developed half the BP since they've arrived here. I agree that the pitching talent needs to improve but I am not jumping to major conclusions over a 3 game series. We were slumping leading up to it and we just hit the playoffs at a really bad time. I full year of Means will help if he can stay healthy, Grayrod should improve and Bradish is really solid.

[Bemorewins]

3 hours ago, EddeeEddee said:

Mayo or Kjerstad could be the upgrade over O'Hearn, though I'm not sure what the timeline for Mayo is thought to be.  O'Hearn could be a good trade candidate, though because he's cheap and had a good 2023 I think it's probably he'll be on the OD roster.  As much as this team needs a big name bat I have no doubt Elias, whether he goes for a big name or not, will be looking for another Ryan O'Hearn or another Aaron Hicks.

The thing is those kind of guys have a limited ceiling. They just aren’t the kind of players who are difference makers in October, which is what we need. 

IMO we don’t need to rinse and repeat the approach from this year as it is most probable to get similar disappointing results in the end.

[Bemorewins]

2 hours ago, mcneck said:

I never said he was on the same level. He is just one of the young position players on the roster with at least a fair amount of upside left. If he could have an .800 OPS and play a solid 2B that would be very valuable to this team and would basically make him a top 5-10 2B. He's shown he has a good eye at the plate and good power in the minors that has yet to show in the majors. I'm not sure I understand the negativity towards him. He is a very solid prospect and could definitely be a piece going forward

Regarding the pitching I feel like the approach has been different. We aren't drafting pitching as high as TB has. That being said we have brought Bradish and Grayrod through the system and have fixed Hall as well as further developed half the BP since they've arrived here. I agree that the pitching talent needs to improve but I am not jumping to major conclusions over a 3 game series. We were slumping leading up to it and we just hit the playoffs at a really bad time. I full year of Means will help if he can stay healthy, Grayrod should improve and Bradish is really solid.

I wouldn’t call my assessment of Westburg as negative, more realistic. Yes an 800 OPS from him would be great and absolutely elite for a 2B. But more than likely Holliday will be the 2B next year. Westburg may be competing with Mayo for 3B.

As far as the second point we have made serious strides in the pitching department in the last few years, but Tampa has had elite pitching for the last 15 years. We have a long way to go before being anything close to that.

[sportsfan8703]

Elias needs to now build a team that can win a 5-7 game playoff series. We should be starting lefties at home games to take advantage of the wall. 

- sign Snell

- sprinkle in Irvin for home starts with a 6 man rotation to keep everyone fresh and healthy through October.

- consider signing a RH reliever

- develop players for what their role will be in October.  Holliday and relievers.

- Get our lefties more LHB vs LHP ABs.  That’s what we will see in October.

Snell is really the guy we need. Sonny Gray would make sense, but Snell is an ACE when healthy and LH. Utilize a 6 man rotation to keep everyone fresh. 

[sportsfan8703]

JD Martinez is a good guy to target. We’d have to be willing to spend and make room for him. However, he could give us a level of RH hitter that we don’t have.