Matt Blood on Jackson Holliday

[RZNJ]

1 hour ago, banks703 said:

I think some folks get tunnel-vision on the prospect ranking itself and can somewhat disregard the player himself and the state of the franchise. Will JH mature and get better? Of course. He's the top prospect in baseball for a reason and he got better defensively throughout his first year of pro ball. I just don't think that his defensive tools project a premier defender at SS, which is something the organization has very clearly demonstrated a priority. I do not see a scenario where if all of the current guys on the ML are still on the roster at the time of JH's promotion (which very well could be OD 24 for all I know), that he pushes Gunnar, Joey and Jorge off of SS. The path for him to be promoted and play in Baltimore in 24 is at 2B, where even JW is currently a better defender.

I genuinely see his hit tool as being currently better than 3/4 of the position players on the ML roster. A top of the order of JH, Adley and Gunnar is absolutely disgusting to think about for the next 5+ years... but I think we are more likely to have to wait a little bit longer to see it. 

Baseball America, FWIW, says Holliday can be a plus SS and a ++ 2B.  I was a little surprised by that.   I still think Gunnar stays at SS but I’m more open to the possibility of Holliday there and definitely have good feeling of Holliday at 2B.   Westburg, Mayo, Ortiz, at 3B?   Whoever but I see Gunnar and Holliday at SS/2B.

[interloper]

39 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

Baseball America, FWIW, says Holliday can be a plus SS and a ++ 2B.  I was a little surprised by that.   I still think Gunnar stays at SS but I’m more open to the possibility of Holliday there and definitely have good feeling of Holliday at 2B.   Westburg, Mayo, Ortiz, at 3B?   Whoever but I see Gunnar and Holliday at SS/2B.

For whatever reason Holliday seems to have taken a hit around here with regards to his SS ability. One of the reasons we took him #1 when there were so many other options was that he was the one guy thought to be able to stick at SS. I still think that's true. Look how much Gunnar improved defensively in the last couple years. Maybe Holliday won't be a gold glove guy over there, but I think he can absolutely stick and be a fine SS.

That said, I don't know if he's pushing Gunnar off SS, and I'm excited about having a stud defender at 2B. That's something that's been kind of rare in Baltimore over the last decade+. Though Westburg looked great there last year as well. 

Edited December 19, 2023 by interloper

[banks703]

3 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

Baseball America, FWIW, says Holliday can be a plus SS and a ++ 2B.  I was a little surprised by that.   I still think Gunnar stays at SS but I’m more open to the possibility of Holliday there and definitely have good feeling of Holliday at 2B.   Westburg, Mayo, Ortiz, at 3B?   Whoever but I see Gunnar and Holliday at SS/2B.

Defensively or his entire profile with hitting and baserunning included?

Can you post a link to the article or perhaps post some quotes? I am obviously not BA but there is nothing about his defensive profile that tells me that he can play plus D at SS and it isn't only about the lack of arm strength for me. I have been posting for quite a while that he looks better suited for 2B, where I could see him as a more premier defender there but I would love to know the logic behind their assessment of him. I think a best-case scenario for him at SS would be league-average.

The only guy currently in the system that has the chops to push Gunnar off of SS is Joey, which frankly, I don't see happening. While Joey is the best defensive SS in the org for me, Gunnar narrowed the gap between the two of them with his play in 23 (while bouncing back and forth between SS and 3B, which is all the more impressive). Gunnar is a bona fide superstar and even even though I am (and have been) a big fan of Joey and think that he is going to have a five or six year run with someone that closely resembles Jack Wilson's great years with the Pirates, I think that Gunnar's overall game as a SS is too much for Joey or any of the other guys to overcome. I hope that I'm wrong though because I do think that an infield alignment of JW at 2B, Joey at SS and Gunnar at 3B gives them the strongest alignment. I just don't think that they are serious enough about Joey to give him a real shot to man SS full-time. I could be wrong. I hope that I'm wrong but I don't think it's going to happen for Joey in Baltimore and it's my feeling that using him in a utility role is a waste of his glove at SS. 

[waroriole]

I don’t see how you can read what Matt Blood said and think Holliday will start with the Orioles this season. It reads like they’re setting it up for him to be in Norfolk the majority of 2024. 

[orioles22]

37 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

Baseball America, FWIW, says Holliday can be a plus SS and a ++ 2B.  I was a little surprised by that.   I still think Gunnar stays at SS but I’m more open to the possibility of Holliday there and definitely have good feeling of Holliday at 2B.   Westburg, Mayo, Ortiz, at 3B?   Whoever but I see Gunnar and Holliday at SS/2B.

I still think Gunnar's best position is third, especially as he gets older. Ortiz, from what I've read and seen, is the best shortstop. I think Holliday plays second to give us the best defensive alignment.

[RZNJ]

4 minutes ago, orioles22 said:

I still think Gunnar's best position is third, especially as he gets older. Ortiz, from what I've read and seen, is the best shortstop. I think Holliday plays second to give us the best defensive alignment.

By the time Gunnar is “older” he’ll be on another team.  I’d guess that he’s your SS for the next 4-5 years.

[Sports Guy]

23 minutes ago, waroriole said:

I don’t see how you can read what Matt Blood said and think Holliday will start with the Orioles this season. It reads like they’re setting it up for him to be in Norfolk the majority of 2024. 

And I don’t see how you can read/hear what Elias has done and said and what Hyde has said and think he will be there for a majority of 2024.

[Satyr3206]

Holliday will be up around June. No doubt in my mind. Maybe sooner.

[Tony-OH]

1 hour ago, interloper said:

For whatever reason Holliday seems to have taken a hit around here with regards to his SS ability. One of the reasons we took him #1 when there were so many other options was that he was the one guy thought to be able to stick at SS. I still think that's true. Look how much Gunnar improved defensively in the last couple years. Maybe Holliday won't be a gold glove guy over there, but I think he can absolutely stick and be a fine SS.

That said, I don't know if he's pushing Gunnar off SS, and I'm excited about having a stud defender at 2B. That's something that's been kind of rare in Baltimore over the last decade+. Though Westburg looked great there last year as well. 

The thing is, Henderson is not working with the quickness and certainly not the arm tool that Gunnar had/has. Now I do agree that he could potentially add more arm strength as he gets stronger, but I doubt he's going to suddenly get more quick.

I would not rule out him playing an average SS in the major leagues at some point, but he's the 4th best defensive shortstop right now behind Gunnar, Ortiz, and Mateo. 

I do think he has a better chance of being a plus defender at 2B then SS though.

[clapdiddy]

5 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

The thing is, Henderson is not working with the quickness and certainly not the arm tool that Gunnar had/has. Now I do agree that he could potentially add more arm strength as he gets stronger, but I doubt he's going to suddenly get more quick.

I would not rule out him playing an average SS in the major leagues at some point, but he's the 4th best defensive shortstop right now behind Gunnar, Ortiz, and Mateo. 

I do think he has a better chance of being a plus defender at 2B then SS though.

I like the idea of Gunnar as full time SS and Holliday as full time 2B.   To start the season, I'd like to see Gunnar at SS and Westburg at 2B for 90% of the games.   

EDIT: I'd really LOVE to see a Gunnar at 3B, Ortiz at SS, and Westburg at 2B to start the year, but I think one of Ortiz/Westburg will be traded.

Edited December 19, 2023 by clapdiddy

[Tony-OH]

44 minutes ago, Satyr3206 said:

Holliday will be up around June. No doubt in my mind. Maybe sooner.

Barring an injury or an implosion by both Westburg and Ortiz (assuming they are both in the org), it makes zero sense to bring up Gunnar in June. Why would a team bring up the #1 prospect in baseball in June and lose a year of controllability, risk Super 2 status, and lose the ability for him to win the rookie of the year and miss out on a draft pick? 

The Orioles will either start the year with him at the major league level (doubtful) or will keep him down most of the year and only bring him up when they know they can keep him as a rookie for next year. If he's brought up before September 1st, he's eligible for the playoffs if he's the team's best second baseman. 

Obviously there are a ton of scenario's where Gunnar could come up or stay down, but it makes zero sense to randomly promote him when it would be too late for him to win rookie of the year, unless there was a need and he was tearing it up.

 

[banks703]

3 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

Barring an injury or an implosion by both Westburg and Ortiz (assuming they are both in the org), it makes zero sense to bring up Gunnar in June. Why would a team bring up the #1 prospect in baseball in June and lose a year of controllability, risk Super 2 status, and lose the ability for him to win the rookie of the year and miss out on a draft pick? 

The Orioles will either start the year with him at the major league level (doubtful) or will keep him down most of the year and only bring him up when they know they can keep him as a rookie for next year. If he's brought up before September 1st, he's eligible for the playoffs if he's the team's best second baseman. 

Obviously there are a ton of scenario's where Gunnar could come up or stay down, but it makes zero sense to randomly promote him when it would be too late for him to win rookie of the year, unless there was a need and he was tearing it up.

 

@Tony-OH the O's have spoiled us with these prolific Middle Infield Prospects. Even today I mix-up Holliday and Henderson... assuming that you're falling victim to this as well here and you mean Holliday and not Henderson. Not to pick nit .. just to clarify for the rest of the class. 

[waroriole]

1 hour ago, Sports Guy said:

And I don’t see how you can read/hear what Elias has done and said and what Hyde has said and think he will be there for a majority of 2024.

The only reason to think Holliday has a chance is based on his performance this year in the low minors and AA. At Norfolk, he was fine but nothing otherworldly that would suggest he should be with the team on OD. 

[Sports Guy]

13 minutes ago, waroriole said:

The only reason to think Holliday has a chance is based on his performance this year in the low minors and AA. At Norfolk, he was fine but nothing otherworldly that would suggest he should be with the team on OD. 

OD? I agree…but not a majority of the season…well into August or whatever. 

[banks703]

2 hours ago, interloper said:

For whatever reason Holliday seems to have taken a hit around here with regards to his SS ability. 

Not if you take off the orange-colored glasses. There are plenty of folks who projected him to be drafted as an OF and more who suggested a move to 2B. @Tony-OH has been consistently stating that there are numerous guys in the org who profile better now and in the future at SS. I genuinely don't mean to come off as a braggart here but I've strongly suggested from Day 1 (and I've seen him play in person now more than 25 times) that he doesn't look to be a strong defender at SS now or in the future. 

Was he taken as a SS? He sure was because the hope was that he could stick there and he very well could progress enough defensively to play a passable SS but he is never going to be the best defensive option there, especially not in an org that already has the SS assets that the O's have for the next 6+ years. 

Edited December 19, 2023 by banks703