Jump to content

Jackson Holliday 2024


btdart20

Recommended Posts

3 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Since April 15, he has a 122 wRC+.

His career wRC+ is 107 and it’s been over 100 every year of his career (including right now) except last year..when it was 99.

Only 9 teams in all of baseball have a wRC+ of 100 or higher at second base and only 11 are 100 or higher at third base.

 

If the O's can get something for Urias, now is the time to move him.  Need Mayo or Holliday up 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Since April 15, he has a 122 wRC+.

His career wRC+ is 107 and it’s been over 100 every year of his career (including right now) except last year..when it was 99.

Only 9 teams in all of baseball have a wRC+ of 100 or higher at second base and only 11 are 100 or higher at third base.

 

Ramon is a solid player who can play literally the entire infield. The offense is slightly above league average when he's going (and I don't think that you or anyone else on here is arguing against this) but for the O's to take the next step in the progression of rebuild, competing, winning team, playoffs, division winner, playoff winner, title contender, title winner... they have to upgrade solid to good or great everywhere there is an opportunity to do so. That means making difficult decisions to move on from solid veterans who have contributed to the franchise's turnaround - the Ramons, the Hayses (who is still my current favorite Oriole), the Jorges, the Cedrics, etc. etc.

If they aren't going to trade JH for a bonafide TOR arm who is controllable beyond next year, then (and if they think JH is ready) he should be given another opportunity to play everyday at the highest level. We know they stagger promotions to not have to manage multiple rookies (and it would at least appear that Cowser may be coming out of that prolonged slump) so the timing might be right for JH or Mayo, whichever of the two are more ready to contribute, who are not being dealt. This impacts Ramon's playing time as much as anyone else. I also think that a move like the above may be pushed off until after the season because it likely sets some dominoes in motion with Jorge and perhaps even Mountcastle.

Ramon has helped keep the O's afloat this year when they have struggled. He's had some big moments this season and I don't openly advocate for moving him because of his versatility and that he's played pretty well since he struggled out of the gate but something has to give with this logjam of MLB guys and prospects and Ramon may very well be the one who is on the outside looking in when all is said and done. 

  • Upvote 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, The Goob said:

Jackson Holliday will not be 21 until after the season.  His number in AAA for the year:

  • .280 batting average
  • .448 OBP with 74 walks versus 69 strikeouts
  • .500 SLG with 34 extra base hits in 246 ABs, 1 every 7.24 ABs, Gunnar is at 1 every 8.5 ABs this year
  • He has scored 73 runs in 67 games
  • In July he has a .333/.492/.689/1.181 slash line
  • His career OPS is .941

Gunnar's OPS at Norfolk was .894 at age 21 before he was called up.  Adley's OPS at Norfolk was .819 at age 24 before he was called up.  Anyone even considering trading this kid is out of their minds and way overvaluing 34 at bats.

He will be the second baseman as soon as they are sure his elbow is fine.

I think that you are attempting to convince this board of something that we all know. I don't believe that any reasonable poster has suggested that JH isn't going to hit or be fine at the ML. You should distance yourself from anyone who believes that 34 Major League ABs (as a 20 year old) is who he is as a player.

But you should also be willing to see the forest through the trees. Any consideration of trading JH goes beyond what I mention above and what you listed. I posted some of the following the other day to another member of the board but I'll go a little bit further with it.

Gunnar is the SS for the Orioles for the next however many years that he decides. He's two years older than Holliday. Their defensive profiles are very different. Jackson Holliday is not pushing Gunnar to third. I've been saying this for almost two years now.

What all of this comes down to is between JH and Mayo, which player's defense at their current MiLB position is more stomachable. I say that it's Mayo. Looking at both players and how they project (not just looking at them as current players) Mayo looks to me like he's more likely to stick at third than Holliday looks like he'll stick in the infield and it isn't solely because of the two of them alone. The entire makeup of the organization factors into this.

Basallo still projects as a catcher but where does he play when he isn't catching or DHing? First Base. Where does Adley play if he isn't catching or DHing? First Base. Where does Kjerstad end up if he isn't moved? First Base. And so on and so on. In three years, they are going to have three guys who probably end up at 1B either because they are not good defensive players elsewhere (Kjerstad is in fact a hack in the outfield) or to save their legs (Adley and Basallo). If Mayo is on the roster, he simply cannot occupy innings at First unless one of the three guys above are moved or unless he is moved.

And where does JW fit into all of this? His defense is better than JH's right now and will always be better. If JW and Mayo are on the roster, where does JH fit in the infield? His defense at 2B is not better than Mayo's defense at 3B. Do they move him to the OF like I have speculated for almost two years? If I am ME and Co. and I fully intended to keep Holliday in the organization I would have him log innings in centerfield instead of showcasing him in the infield where he doesn't offer better defense than any of Gunnar, JW, Mateo, Urias or even Mayo (in my opinion). JW and Gunnar graduated through the minors together and are close and have good rapport up the middle. I see JW's defense at 2B on par with what Gunnar does at SS if JW stops bouncing between Third and Second. 

So, where does JH fit into the team going forward? To me, he doesn't. This has nothing to do with his 34 ABs this year. This doesn't even have anything to do with the defensive limitations that I have been very outspoken about for nearly two years. This has to do with the overall health and makeup of the entire organization and what is best for them to pursue a Championship at the highest level while maintaining a strong enough pipeline to sustain the winning culture that ME and Co. have worked so hard to rebuild. If JH is the headliner of a deal to acquire a top flight starter (and to be clear, this is the ONLY way that I would trade him) it allows the O's to preserve more of the strength of the organization, which is their prospect pipeline. Whether it is Skubel or another bonafide starter, JH as the headliner means not having to include other (or more) top prospects.

I still have JH as the top prospect in the O's system but Mayo and Basallo have closed that gap for me. Not because of the dozen or so games for Holliday in the bigs but because the other two guys are developing and both look like they're going to be extremely productive major leaguers. Yes, they are all still prospects and until they prove themselves at the big league level, that is all that they are to the O's. But if a deal to acquire a controllable (this year + 2 more years), legitimate TOR pitcher meant having to choose between dealing the #3, #5, #8, #13 and #20 Prospects or the #1, #5 and #11 Prospects, I'm trading Holliday, Norby and Fabian before I trade Mayo, Norby, Povich, Max Wagner and Joshua Liranzo.

At the end of the day it may be just as much a numbers game as anything else. Would it sting to give up Jackson Holliday? Of course it would and I am not openly advocating to move him or suggesting that I don't like the player. I've made Robinson Cano comps to him. But for the next three years, the O's would be better with a TOR starter, Mayo at 3B and JW at 2B than they would be with JW at 3B, Holliday at 2B, Mayo not getting ABs.. and not acquiring a TOR starter.

Like it or not that is the reality and why I think that Holliday makes more sense to move for that bonafide TOR, controllable starter. 

Edited by banks703
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Interesting that you have more faith at Mayo at 3B vs. Holliday at 2B. Mayo is pretty poor at 3B. His future feels more like a 1B/DH type. I just don't think all the hubbub in the preseason about his changed arm slot has made enough of a difference. He has improved, but not enough to be a regular at 3B in the majors. The guy has a very strong arm, but that's only one part of the equation. I really hope he improves as I'd love to see him at the hot corner for the O's.

Holliday was very solid at 2B last year. I have a sneaking suspicion that his inflammation in his throwing arm as well as performance at the majors have played into t hings this year. I'm a lot more bullish on his future at 2B than Mayo at 3B. Mayo feels more like the future at 1B for the O's. I don't think you can put him at 3B this year without some clear liability there. Westburg would be so much steadier there, IMHO. 

Edited by LookitsPuck
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, LookitsPuck said:

Interesting that you have more faith at Mayo at 3B vs. Holliday at 2B. Mayo is pretty poor at 3B. His future feels more like a 1B/DH type. I just don't think all the hubbub in the preseason about his changed arm slot has made enough of a difference. He has improved, but not enough to be a regular at 3B in the majors. The guy has a very strong arm, but that's only one part of the equation. I really hope he improves as I'd love to see him at the hot corner for the O's.

Holliday was very solid at 2B last year. I have a sneaking suspicion that his inflammation in his throwing arm as well as performance at the majors have played into t hings this year. I'm a lot more bullish on his future at 2B than Mayo at 3B. Mayo feels more like the future at 1B for the O's. I don't think you can put him at 3B this year without some clear liability there. Westburg would be so much steadier there, IMHO. 

Again, I think it's as much about the overall construction of the big league team. For me, Coby Mayo is Troy Glaus, only with Alex Rodriguez playing next to him at SS vs. David Eckstein. Gunnar's excellent defense at SS would help Mayo at Third more than it would help Holliday at 2B, where, frankly, I don't love how JH feeds or receives DPs but that's a topic for another conversation. I think where Holliday ends up (if he isn't dealt for a legit, controllable TOR starter) depends as much on the other guys in Baltimore as it does him. As I mentioned in the previous post, I would put Holliday in Center and let his athleticism figure it out. The Pads did it with Jackson Merrill and look at how that's working out for them. Personally, I think that Holliday is the better overall athlete (save for the arm) but his sticking at 2B may be further out of his control/performance than most realize.

I watch A LOT of the affiliates and Mayo's defense is not as bad as the E's have indicated. He actually has great hands and his lateral movement is really good for a kid his size, who is still growing into his frame. He's all arms and legs but he's gotten better every year at Third and the power potential and where he slots into the lineup this year and going forward is otherworldly. I just think that what he does as a 3B will make a greater impact on the team's overall success than JH's as a 2B. And I feel very strongly about that. 

Edited by banks703
Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, LookitsPuck said:

Interesting that you have more faith at Mayo at 3B vs. Holliday at 2B. Mayo is pretty poor at 3B. His future feels more like a 1B/DH type. I just don't think all the hubbub in the preseason about his changed arm slot has made enough of a difference. He has improved, but not enough to be a regular at 3B in the majors. The guy has a very strong arm, but that's only one part of the equation. I really hope he improves as I'd love to see him at the hot corner for the O's.

Holliday was very solid at 2B last year. I have a sneaking suspicion that his inflammation in his throwing arm as well as performance at the majors have played into t hings this year. I'm a lot more bullish on his future at 2B than Mayo at 3B. Mayo feels more like the future at 1B for the O's. I don't think you can put him at 3B this year without some clear liability there. Westburg would be so much steadier there, IMHO. 

Holliday was +3 OAA in his time on the big league club at 2B. Jordan Westburg is -6 OAA at 2B, but yes, that post you responded to was right. Westburg is going to be the far superior 2B defensively lol. Unreal.

Edited by Malike
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Malike said:

Holliday was +3 OAA in his time on the big league club at 2B. Jordan Westburg is -6 OAA at 2B, but yes, that post you quoted was right. Westburg is going to be the far superior 2B defensively lol. Unreal.

People have really allowed a SSS and a bum elbow completely change their thoughts of Holliday. It’s so weird and they are all going to look so dumb very soon imo.

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

People have really allowed a SSS and a bum elbow completely change their thoughts of Holliday. It’s so weird and they are all going to look so dumb very soon imo.

Everyone is a professional talent evaluator I guess. The leg kick will never let him hit a fastball at the ML level!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Malike said:

Holliday was +3 OAA in his time on the big league club at 2B. Jordan Westburg is -6 OAA at 2B, but yes, that post you responded to was right. Westburg is going to be the far superior 2B defensively lol. Unreal.

You peanut gallery'd this the other day.. OAA is ... uh ... yeah  

Mateo is the 26th best defensive 2B according to OAA. So, there's that. Use OAA as Gospel if you want.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, banks703 said:

You peanut gallery'd this the other day.. OAA is ... uh ... yeah  

Mateo is the 26th best defensive 2B according to OAA. So, there's that. Use OAA as Gospel if you want.

If the choice is between OAA and

Quote

Looking at both players and how they project (not just looking at them as current players) Mayo looks to me like he's more likely to stick at third than Holliday looks like he'll stick in the infield and it isn't solely because of the two of them alone

I'll take OAA.

How much have you seen Mayo play at third?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

People have really allowed a SSS and a bum elbow completely change their thoughts of Holliday. It’s so weird and they are all going to look so dumb very soon imo.

I've been extremely consistent with my opinion of the kid since he was drafted and we've had our debates and back and forth about it. With respect to what we have disagreed upon, I've been pretty spot-on about what I've posted about him as a player whereas your arguments always just go back to that he was drafted as a SS so he must be a SS or you resort to ad hominem. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Malike said:

Everyone is a professional talent evaluator I guess. The leg kick will never let him hit a fastball at the ML level!

Professional? No. High School and Collegiately? Yes. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah, I liked the idea of Mayo at 3B and Holliday maybe in CF but I was just coming around to the realization that Westburg at 3B and Holliday at 2B was the best future alignment which would make one of Basallo, Mayo, or Kjerstad more tradeable.    I have more confidence in Holliday as a 2B than Mayo as a 3B moving forward and Westburg looks better at 3B.

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.




  • Posts

    • He’s really having a rough year.  Three trips to the IL plus an illness that zapped him badly at the beginning of the year.  I’d say there’s a good chance he’s getting non-tendered this offseason.  But hopefully he can recover from this latest setback and contribute to the Phillies during the postseason.
    • It’s kind of amazing, but Bowman has thrown 207.2 innings in his career, while Perez has thrown 207.1.   Perez has allowed fewer hits (183/188), fewer runs (101/105), fewer homers (15/18) and has struck out more batters (191/167).   The only place where Bowman has the advantage is walks (108/75).  Perez is five years younger.   I prefer Perez every day and twice on Sunday.  
    • I don't want to hijack this thread but for those that are interested: Underestimating the Fog (Bill James)-or the original title-The Problem of Distinguishing Between Transient and Persistent Phenomena When Dealing with Variables from a Statistically Unstable Platform.  https://sabr.org/research/article/underestimating-the-fog/ Excerpt: " Dick Cramer, in the clutch-hitting study, did the same thing, and catcher-ERA studies, which look for consistency in catcher’s impact on ERAs, do the same thing; they compare one comparison offshoot with a second comparison offshoot. It is a comparison of two comparison offshoots. When you do that, the result embodies not just all of the randomness in two original statistics, but all of the randomness in four original statistics. Unless you have extremely stable “original elements” — original statistics stabilized by hundreds of thousands of trials — then the result is, for all practical purposes, just random numbers. We ran astray because we have been assuming that random data is proof of nothingness, when in reality random data proves nothing. In essence, starting with Dick Cramer’s article, Cramer argued, “I did an analysis which should have identified clutch hitters, if clutch hitting exists. I got random data; therefore, clutch hitters don’t exist.” Cramer was using random data as proof of nothingness — and I did the same, many times, and many other people also have done the same. But I’m saying now that’s not right; random data proves nothing — and it cannot be used as proof of nothingness. Why? Because whenever you do a study, if your study completely fails, you will get random data. Therefore, when you get random data, all you may conclude is that your study has failed. Cramer’s study may have failed to identify clutch hitters because clutch hitters don’t exist — as he concluded — or it may have failed to identify clutch hitters because the method doesn’t work — as I now believe. We don’t know. All we can say is that the study has failed. Dealing now with the nine conclusions listed near the start of the article, which were: -Clutch hitters don’t exist. -Pitchers have no ability to win, which is distinct from an ability to prevent runs. -Winning or losing close games is luck. -Catchers have little or no impact on a pitcher’s ERA. -A pitcher has little or no control over his hits/innings ratio, other than by striking batters out and allowing home runs. -Base running has no persistent impact on a team’s runs scored, other than by base stealing. -Batters have no individual tendency to hit well or hit poorly against left-handed pitching. -Batters don’t get hot and cold. -One hitter does not “protect” another in a hitting lineup. On [1), it is my opinion that this should be regarded as an open question. While Dick Cramer is a friend of mine, and I have tremendous respect for his work, I am convinced that, even if clutch-hitting skill did exist and was extremely important, this analysis would still reach the conclusion that it did, simply because it is not possible to detect consistency in clutch hitting by the use of this method." He goes on to question the other conclusions.  It's a very interesting read. Here is Birnbaum's response:  https://sabr.org/journal/article/response-to-mapping-the-fog/  
    • Yeah, this is sort of what I see. He’s not a true relief ace or anything, but he’s pretty good for the most part. Not a bum. He’s given up 24 ERs this season. Almost half of those (11) came in a one-week span from 7/29 to 8/6, which also encompassed the trade. He had a 29.45 ERA over those 6 appearances. 2 of his 3 HRs allowed are during that week, as are (oddly enough) both of his SBs allowed. Outside of that one horrific week, it’s a 2.68 ERA for the season. Sure, everybody looks better if you take out their worst week — but that’s pretty good performance over the other 95% of the season.
    • Just drilling down on our schedule vs the Yankees’ the rest of the way.  Series by series, BAL then NYY: TBR 3, at CHC 3 at BOS 3, KCR 3 at DET 3, BOS 4 SFG 3, at SEA 3 DET 3, at OAK 3 at NYY 3, BAL 3 at MIN 3, PIT 3 It’s interesting that whenever the O’s are at home, the Yankees are on the road and vice versa.  The Yankees have the marginally easier schedule and 3 fewer road games.  Looks to me like the Yankees are likely to miss Paul Skenes when they play the final series of the season. 
    • That's why you go hard like Moisés Alou.
  • Popular Contributors

×
×
  • Create New...