Boswell on Attendance

[Witchy_Chick]

Marlins -- <-14,102>

NL Total - <-41,892>

Interesting, the NL is down (Bonds factor?) and the AL is up (White Sox champs?)

The NL is down due to the Fish Firesale. 14,102 fewer Marlins fans = 33.6% of the overall NL total decreased attendance.

Witchy

[Frobby]

The Orioles aren't going to get the same surge from a good start they got last year because people are going to take a more cynical "SHOW ME" attitude this time around. A good 2006 season will only make 2007 attendance better, in all likelihood.

Very, very true. There is just no way that attendance through the all-star break this year is going to match last year's, considering how well we were playing in the first half last year and the fact that everyone really was feeling we had a chance. (Well, everyone but Sapper and a few others wiser than the rest of us.) This year, even if the team had the same 44-37 record we had in the first half last year, everyone will be waiting for the other shoe to drop.

BUT...if August 1 rolls around and the team is paying pretty well, and doesn't go into a total swan dive, we could see better August/September attendance than the team had last year. Even if that scenario plays out, I think attendace will still be down for the year, unless we are not just "playing well," but truly in a September pennant race -- not a very likely scenario.

[bgfield]

I think it's a real cause for concern, especially since this team is playing pretty well right now.

I believe last years first half explosion, combined with the second half implosion, is seriously hurting our attendance. Even if we go on a 10 game winning streak, people are going to be skeptical about our chances of contending. Not to mention we didn't make any big name moves this past offseason, many casual fans wont have any reason to believe we'll be any better this year.

I think it's too early to worry yet. When school's out and the temperature heats up and we're winning more than we're losing, people will show up. And even if we have record low attendance this year, I think next year when we'll likely have a lot of our younger players as regulars, people will turn out to see this homegrown talent on the field.

[AgentOrange]

The NL is down due to the Fish Firesale. 14,102 fewer Marlins fans = 33.6% of the overall NL total decreased attendance.

Witchy

That is what you think, which is fine, but don't discredit the bonds Factor.

His away games this year so far were these.

Padres for three games with a total attendance of 98,548 when thier max capacity for those 3 games is 127,500

The Dodgers for 3 games for a total attendance of 156,204 when thier max capacity for those 3 games is 168,000

The D-Backs for 3 games for a total attendance of 67,948 when thier max capacity for those 3 is 147,099

[Orsulak]

The basis of his argument, which is patently ludicrous, is that Washington, D.C., deserved a team because Peter Angelos was such an awful owner of the Orioles. Then he compounded his irrationality by completely distorting the issue of how taxes would pay for the ballpark.

As I recall, I think the argument was that because of its history, etc., DC deserved a team, and that the Baltimore/DC/VA market could support two teams, in spite of Angelos' opposition. And his mismanagement of the team, and hostility to baseball in Washington, was making DC-area fans even more hostile to the Orioles. I think it's entirely correct that Peter Angelos made a baseball team in DC more attractive for DC-area fans. It's debatable whether DC residents actually want a baseball team--or rather, want to spend half a billion dollars of the city's money to pay for a stadium. Boswell never goes anywhere near that issue, though.

If he had looked at the issue honestly, I wouldn't have squawked. But he whined, distorted facts and pretended that he knew an enormous amount of insider information, all of which turned out to be false. His two favorite insider scoops were: (1) Peter Angelos was on the verge of selling the Orioles. (2) Peter Angelos was deliberately sabotaging the Orioles so that fellow owners would say, "Geez, poor old Pete has such a bad team in Baltimore, we better not move the Expos to D.C., or he will be hurting."

Well, why don't you look at the issue honestly for us, and explain the situation (So I won't squawk). As for the insider info, I don't remember that the Angelos "sabotage" theory was presented as a "scoop"--i.e., Boswell didn't write that he had a source or documentation that proved this--it was just a theory.

My gripe is with Orioles fans who, while normally highly critical of Angelos' management of the team and its personnel issues, for some reason take his side in his fight against the Nationals. Angelos' fight against the Nationals is about one thing only--his income. Without access to the Orioles' books, we have no idea how much money the club loses with a team in DC--or, with the cozy deal he negotiated from MLB and Comcast, whether he's losing ANY money. I don't have the slightest sympathy for tycoons and baseball owners who plead poverty and hardship while screwing over their cities and their teams' fans (and in Peter's case, another team's fans). If the owner of the Baltimore Orioles--and the owner of the Pittsburgh Pirates, for that matter--weren't profiting off the team, they wouldn't be in the business in the first place. And if they're making money, they can afford to improve the team.

[mojmann]

The problem is, his hatred of Angelos doesn't allow him to see nuances. I haven't yet seen him write about the improvement in our minor leagues. I haven't yet seen him write that Ramon Hernandez may turn out to be the steal of the free-agent class.

When the probability of the Expos' move out of Montreal emerged, Boswell got an extraordinary case of tunnel vision: All of his baseball writing focused on the cause of getting the Expos to Washington, D.C.

I admire a guy with strong convictions, even when I disagree with him.

But Boswell went way, way too far. The basis of his argument, which is patently ludicrous, is that Washington, D.C., deserved a team because Peter Angelos was such an awful owner of the Orioles. Then he compounded his irrationality by completely distorting the issue of how taxes would pay for the ballpark.

If he had looked at the issue honestly, I wouldn't have squawked. But he whined, distorted facts and pretended that he knew an enormous amount of insider information, all of which turned out to be false. His two favorite insider scoops were: (1) Peter Angelos was on the verge of selling the Orioles. (2) Peter Angelos was deliberately sabotaging the Orioles so that fellow owners would say, "Geez, poor old Pete has such a bad team in Baltimore, we better not move the Expos to D.C., or he will be hurting."

He floated those scoops for a year or so, then quietly dropped them (without explanation or apology) when no one else took them seriously.

I love your posts. You are absolutely right. Boswell went off the deep end -- irresponsibly so. He should have been berated by fellow journalists for that last point you brought up.

Instead, people say, "Well, he's such a great writer." Truth is, Boswell has a long history of playing fast and loose with the facts.

This is something that Boswell apologists like Frobby just can't seem to see.

(Sorry, Frobby.)

[keysersose]

Atendance at OPCY is more in line with payroll then it was in the past.

Orioles management is getting what they paid for, medium budget teams, without frills, and that nets them average attendance, bulstered by the fact that New York and Boston fans pack Orioles Park for 19-20 games a year.(add 3 more when the Mets or Phillies play in Baltimore).

[howie14]

My gripe is with Orioles fans who, while normally highly critical of Angelos' management of the team and its personnel issues, for some reason take his side in his fight against the Nationals. Angelos' fight against the Nationals is about one thing only--his income. Without access to the Orioles' books, we have no idea how much money the club loses with a team in DC--or, with the cozy deal he negotiated from MLB and Comcast, whether he's losing ANY money. I don't have the slightest sympathy for tycoons and baseball owners who plead poverty and hardship while screwing over their cities and their teams' fans (and in Peter's case, another team's fans). If the owner of the Baltimore Orioles--and the owner of the Pittsburgh Pirates, for that matter--weren't profiting off the team, they wouldn't be in the business in the first place. And if they're making money, they can afford to improve the team.

Then your gripe is with me. Nobody is all good or all evil and the number of "philanthropist owners" can be counted on less than one hand.

I wanted the Expos kept out of DC for one selfish reason; they were going to damage the ability of my hometown team to prosper, compete and maybe even to remain. I don't care if Angelos himself goes broke tomorrow, I want to continue to root for the Baltimore Orioles.

Once it was obvious the Expos were coming the problem then became what was fair for the Orioles. No other existing franchise was facing the placement of another team 35 miles from its doorstep; the idea that it should be placed there with absolutely no compensation to the Orioles is ridiculous. Even the Washington Post's writer on the MASN-Comcast debacle regularly points out that MLB granted TV rights over the entire market to the Orioles and EBW in 1981. I suspect they still thought the team would windup down there eventually.

I hate Angelos, but every other owner would have fought for a compensation package were they in the same boat.

I agree with everything you say about not trying to improve the team, but I fail to see where allowing MLB to turn my favorite team into the Royals permanently would have helped that very much.

[Frobby]

I love your posts. You are absolutely right. Boswell went off the deep end -- irresponsibly so. He should have been berated by fellow journalists for that last point you brought up.

Instead, people say, "Well, he's such a great writer." Truth is, Boswell has a long history of playing fast and loose with the facts.

This is something that Boswell apologists like Frobby just can't seem to see.

(Sorry, Frobby.)

No, actually I do see it. I agree with everything jimbusby said about Boswell's "conspiracy theories" regarding Angelos. They are crackpot stuff. That still doesn't stop me from thinking that (1) his column today is more or less spot-on, at least so far as the Orioles go, and (2) when he sticks to writing about what is going on between the white lines, or the personalities of the players and managers, Boswell is a joy to read.

[keysersose]

I agree with everything you say about not trying to improve the team, but I fail to see where allowing MLB to turn my favorite team into the Royals permanently would have helped that very much.

The only one responsible for turning the Orioles into the Royals is peter angelos. If he had put the effort and resources into amateur scouting, international scouting and intelligent free agent acquisitions that he did in trying to prevent the Expos from moving into DC, then the Orioles would be the big market team they were in the 90's and DC would not have been a viable option.

[mojmann]

I hate Angelos, but every other owner would have fought for a compensation package were they in the same boat.

This is an important point. Luckily for us, we had an owner who knew how to play legal hardball.

[jim busby]

Then your gripe is with me. Nobody is all good or all evil and the number of "philanthropist owners" can be counted on less than one hand.

I wanted the Expos kept out of DC for one selfish reason; they were going to damage the ability of my hometown team to prosper, compete and maybe even to remain. I don't care if Angelos himself goes broke tomorrow, I want to continue to root for the Baltimore Orioles.

Once it was obvious the Expos were coming the problem then became what was fair for the Orioles. No other existing franchise was facing the placement of another team 35 miles from its doorstep; the idea that it should be placed there with absolutely no compensation to the Orioles is ridiculous. Even the Washington Post's writer on the MASN-Comcast debacle regularly points out that MLB granted TV rights over the entire market to the Orioles and EBW in 1981. I suspect they still thought the team would windup down there eventually.

I hate Angelos, but every other owner would have fought for a compensation package were they in the same boat.

I agree with everything you say about not trying to improve the team, but I fail to see where allowing MLB to turn my favorite team into the Royals permanently would have helped that very much.

Yep.............

[PeteU]

What's it this guy's business?

City loses its own team, city follows team of neighboring city for several decades, city slowly gets disenchanted with team of neighboring city and wants its own team again, city gets a new team, city still obsesses over team it used to follow because new team just isn't exciting enough...

Honestly, really, Boz. You've got your own problems....no owner, a $600 million boondoggle of a new stadium to build, a drunk GM, a 5-10 start. Keep your eyes on your issues, man.

We got some problems, namely with our owner. We all know that.

Now, in the words of Plato, or maybe it was Socrates, "Butt out!"

[osfan83]

This is an important point. Luckily for us, we had an owner who knew how to play legal hardball.

Correct... I'm no fan of PA's, yes he and his FO staff are responsible for the last 8 losing season, but moving the Expos to DC makes things even worse. The O's need every available dollar in the Balt-Wash area to hope to compete LONG TERM with the Yankess and Red Sox as long as teams are free to spend as much as they want on talent.

[howie14]

The only one responsible for turning the Orioles into the Royals is peter angelos. If he had put the effort and resources into amateur scouting, international scouting and intelligent free agent acquisitions that he did in trying to prevent the Expos from moving into DC, then the Orioles would be the big market team they were in the 90's and DC would not have been a viable option.

I don't believe that Angelos's incompetence made DC more viable as a relocation target any more than I believe that PA intentionally destroyed the team to make it look weak so the Expos wouldn't come here.

Everything you say about what PA has done to the Orioles is true. I long ago gave up on him and am rooting for a good owner next time.

My point about the Royals is that, had the DC fans had their way, the Nats would have moved in free and clear and control all TV from Ellicott City to Charlotte. The Orioles would not have even been allowed to broadcast into that region and the Orioles entire TV market would be a small circle from Ellicott City to the Delaware line.

Guess how much Comcast would have paid for those rights. We probably wouldn't even still have games on cable.

Under those circumstances the next owner would have no operating capital at all, no matter how wonderful he (or she) turned out to be.