Boswell on Attendance

[OldNewGuy]

My memory is as faulty as the next persons, but I have no fond memories of the EBW regime. Ed was a DC guy and hated the drive up to Memorial Stadium with a passion. He had no loyalty or connections to Baltimore.

He had been forced out as the General Operating Partner of the Washington Redskins when Jack Kent Cooke, aka the "Squire", decided to leave the west coast and move to Middleburg, Va. and run the team he owned, in person, instead of by proxy. EBW had developed a taste for the role of "Sports Owner" and found a nearby franchise for sale.

Once he became the owner he seemed to make veiled threats of "moving the team" if attendance declined, the city didn't support the team, etc. Unfortunately for him, the Orioles entered an era of increasing attendance and it made it more difficult to justify any move. However, the one year leases continued at Memorial.

When "Bob the Redfaced Owner" skipped town with our football team, Willie (Wiley) Don and the state legislature realized the O's could be next and eventually got cracking on the new ball park.

EBW couldn't move the club, got sick and his estate sold the franchise. Eli J used the O's and OPCY as a cash cow to keep his other enterprises afloat, and when this crashed enter our beloved PA. I am no fan of PAs baseball acumen, but his is a loyal Baltimoreon. NO threats to move. I hope B-more has someone with deep enough pockets to buy the club when he is gone. Bad local ownership is sad. Bad out of town ownership is worse.

[howie14]

Old new guy,

Your impressions are on the money. Hoffberger had wanted to sell the team for years. For the longest time, he swore he'd only sell to someone promising to keep the team here. Bill Veeck tried to buy the club back in 1975, but the deal fell through and he wound up back in Chicago.

After several years of no one coming forward to buy the Orioles, Hoffberger declared he'd now sell to anyone. EBW, ousted from the day-to-day operation of the Skins by Cooke's divorce and relocation, came forward. The announced selling price was $12M and it included $2M in the club's treasury. So he got the team for $10M and took control after the 1979 season. Many people think that the reason DC fans started coming here is that they were sure the Orioles would be down there in a matter of years, if not months. There were "Washington Orioles" t-shirt sightings at Memorial that summer.

Luckily for us, Oriole Magic had begun and suddenly there was no reason to move.

You are also right that PA makes no noise about moving, I just worry about the next guy.

[tennOsfan]

Old new guy,

Your impressions are on the money. Hoffberger had wanted to sell the team for years. For the longest time, he swore he'd only sell to someone promising to keep the team here. Bill Veeck tried to but the club back in 1975, but the deal fell through and he wound up back in Chicago.

After several years of no one coming forward to buy the Orioles, Hoffberger declared he'd now sell to anyone. EBW, ousted from the day-to-day operation of the Skins by Cooke's divorce and relocation, came forward. The announced selling price was $12M and it included $2M in the club's treasury. So he got the team for $10M and took control after the 1979 season. Many people think that the reason DC fans started coming here is that they were sure the Orioles would be down there in a matter of years, if not months. There were "Washington Orioles" t-shirt sightings at Memorial that summer.

Luckily for us, Oriole Magic had begun and suddenly there was no reason to move.

You are also right that PA makes no noise about moving, I just worry about the next guy.

When I finally hit it big on Powerball, there's a distinct chance the Os could be moved to East Tennessee!

[mojmann]

You are also right that PA makes no noise about moving, I just worry about the next guy.

Pretty confident that won't happen in our lifetime, Howie, for the following reasons:

1) There's a lot more money in the Baltimore area now, and a stable of willing, local owners -- groups could include Chip Mason, Bill Miller, Cal Ripken, Steve Geppi, Bill Struever, David Cordish, Ed Hale, the Paterakis family. To preserve his legacy, I don't think PA or his estate would sell to out-of-town owners. (Isn't it amazing that Hoffberger couldn't find somebody with a lousy $12 million?)

2) 16 years, I think, still left on the lease at Camden Yards

3) Baseball would be villified for moving the Orioles. The NFL, by contrast, wanted the Colts to move because of a bad stadium, low revenue possibilities and the weird 2 p.m. start times for games that was screwing with the almighty NFL TV contract.

4) In the continental U.S., there are virtually no open markets more attractive than Baltimore.

[RShack]

Well, it seems that I was somewhat unfair to TonySoprano. I apologize for this. The good news is that I learned something.

Tony appeared to give credit to EBW for OPACY, and I said it was Jacobs. I gather that the Actual Truth is that:

* Jacobs had nothing to do with the downtown location, but he did have a lot to do with the character of Oriole Park's design.

* EBW was the owner when the committment to the downtown location was made.

* The downtown location was not EBW's fault, but rather Willie Don and others, and EBW just went along.

I still can't see how EBW deserves any credit for anything positive. However, I may be irrational about this. I feel about EBW the way a lot of folks around here feel about PA. I think my unbridled abhorence of EBW is more well founded: all he did was make things worse, and he made nothing better. PA on the other hand is more of a mixed bag: a period where he made things temporarily better, then a period when he screwed up big-time, and now a period in which there is evidence of both good and bad. The jury is still out on this third PA period, but the jury ain't out on EBW. He was just plain ole bad. When he died, it was the only time in my life I wanted to dance at a man's funeral.

[TonySoprano]

rshackleford, thanks. The Orioles lost the division on the last day of the 1982 season and won it all the following year, in the third and fourth years of EBW's term as owner. The winning ways continued through 1985, six straight years in the nine year term of EBW. Those are positive things for which you don't want to give EBW credit. Compare his record with what PA has accomplished and failed to accomplish in twelve years, nine losing seasons, eight consecutive.

Under Eli Jacobs, team payroll was cut down to 25th (of 26) in 1989-1991, 23rd in 1992, and 19th (of 28) in 1993.

[howie14]

rshackleford, thanks. The Orioles lost the division on the last day of the 1982 season and won it all the following year, in the third and fourth years of EBW's term as owner. The winning ways continued through 1985, six straight years in the nine year term of EBW. Those are positive things for which you don't want to give EBW credit. Compare his record with what PA has accomplished and failed to accomplish in twelve years, nine losing seasons, eight consecutive.

Under Eli Jacobs, team payroll was cut down to 25th (of 26) in 1989-1991, 23rd in 1992, and 19th (of 28) in 1993.

I know it's kind of pointless to be arguing the stewardship of an owner almost two decades gone, but EBW's Orioles early on field success was based on talent that came through the pipeline under the Hoffberger regime. Under him, the farm system went completely barren; a problem that has inexplicably continued until the last couple of years.

He offended me with the coy way he always handled the "is the team moving?" questions, never actually ruling it out and giving smirky "the team is still here" answers. He was a much "better" lawyer when it came to non-answers than PA has ever been. Part of PA's problems stem from his ability to alienate with the spoken word. EBW-Frank Costello's lawyer-was much, much slicker.

And, of course, he kept us in Miami for ST as all our neighbors fled for better sites-a problem which also amazingly continues today in Lauderdale.

None of this is to say that there is anything positive about PA's ownership. It's only to remind everyone that this team has been saddled with losers and egotists since 1979.

Wow, the last phrase should go on the team's letterhead. :002_sbiggrin:

[RShack]

rshackleford, thanks. The Orioles lost the division on the last day of the 1982 season and won it all the following year, in the third and fourth years of EBW's term as owner. The winning ways continued through 1985, six straight years in the nine year term of EBW. Those are positive things for which you don't want to give EBW credit. Compare his record with what PA has accomplished and failed to accomplish in twelve years, nine losing seasons, eight consecutive.

You are quite welcome. (I figure there's no point in arguing about something once you realize that you're just wrong ;-)

You are correct that I don't give EBW any credit for the O's success at the beginning of his tenure. I don't think he did anything to make those good seasons happen. I think it was all there, or already in the pipeline, ahead of time. I think the only thing EBW did was turn off the flow of resources to the farm system. From the second he took over, the O's failed to develop any everyday player from within. Jacobs continued this, and so did PA. But I think it's fair to say that EBW is the man who destroyed the organization. Jacobs did zip to rebuild it. I think PA's big sin is that he waited way too many years to begin the rebuilding. But he *finally has* got that well underway.

If there is someway that this assessment is unfair to EBW, I trust you to point it out. But, like I said, I'm afraid that I don't have much of an open mind about him.

[howie14]

Boswell's rambling answer to an Orioles question on today's webchat:

The team is doing its job on the field, so far. Angelos completely misjudged the deep anger of Washington fans at the idea that an owner in ANOTHER CITY could get his hands on the TV rights to a team in THEIR CITY. I mean, it's just insanity. Regardless of whether Comcast or MASN/Angelos are the bigger villain by a small margin, what did Peter THINK was going to happen as this RSN staredown played out over an extended period of time.

He's getting just what he deserves. But he could never have imagined, IMO, that he'd see an attendance drop of this proportion. If it stays at this level __down 18-19%__ it changes the future of the franchise, at least until you can start to fix it.

In short, lost of people had to make ticket decisions over the winter. The Nats were being battered on all fronts __none of it their fault. By MLB-vs-DC Council, by lost players because of MLB budget issues, by Comcast-MASN, etc.

Out of all these, only ONE target was available for retaliation __the Orioles, symbolized by Angelos. So, I think, he and his team took the hit for everybody else's sins as well as their own.

That's why you don't want to play with fire. Sometimes you REALLY get burned.

I'm one of the guys who thinks that the Nats do hurt the Orioles financially, but I hardly think that the 18-19% drop is due to the anger of DC fans. To quote TM, "It's just insanity".

The drop in attendance is because the team fell apart last year and did nothing that could be perceived as an impact change in the off season, plain and simple. I personally think the additions and the subtractions do make this year's team better, but fans don't flock to the park to see Leo Mazzone or to not see Sosa, Palmeiro, and Ponson.

Apparently to Boswell, not only is PA the source of all darkness, but DC is the source of all OPACY attendance.

I think the Nats mainly hurt the Orioles financially in areas other than attendance. There is no way the April attendance falloff is caused by them.

It's Baltimore fans who are "staying away in droves".

[mweb]

You are quite welcome. (I figure there's no point in arguing about something once you realize that you're just wrong ;-)

You are correct that I don't give EBW any credit for the O's success at the beginning of his tenure. I don't think he did anything to make those good seasons happen. I think it was all there, or already in the pipeline, ahead of time. I think the only thing EBW did was turn off the flow of resources to the farm system. From the second he took over, the O's failed to develop any everyday player from within. Jacobs continued this, and so did PA. But I think it's fair to say that EBW is the man who destroyed the organization. Jacobs did zip to rebuild it. I think PA's big sin is that he waited way too many years to begin the rebuilding. But he *finally has* got that well underway.

If there is someway that this assessment is unfair to EBW, I trust you to point it out. But, like I said, I'm afraid that I don't have much of an open mind about him.

Well underway is an overstatement as far as I'm concerned. Even though we've had 8 straight losing seasons, PA and the O's have never come close to fully committing to rebuilding.

[PeteU]

Only 21,569 at last nights game at RFK. The second lowest attendance for the entire day in all of baseball. (Only the hapless Royals had less). Lowest yet for a Nationals game in their two year history.

Now Mr. Boswell, I don't know the exact quote, but I do know there's something about glass houses and not throwing stones...

[D-CAB]

Only 21,569 at last nights game at RFK. The second lowest attendance for the entire day in all of baseball. (Only the hapless Royals had less). Lowest yet for a Nationals game in their two year history.

Now Mr. Boswell, I don't know the exact quote, but I do know there's something about glass houses and not throwing stones...

Bottom line is that you must win to draw the crowds. This goes for the Nats and Orioles. End of attendance story. People in the DC/MD/VA area will go see whoever is winning. It's really as simple as that.

[D-CAB]

I forgot to add...unless you are the Redskins, no team in Washington can be losing and not suffer in attendance. I've lived here my whole life and it's always been like that.

[Frobby]

Only 21,569 at last nights game at RFK. The second lowest attendance for the entire day in all of baseball. (Only the hapless Royals had less). Lowest yet for a Nationals game in their two year history.

Now Mr. Boswell, I don't know the exact quote, but I do know there's something about glass houses and not throwing stones...

The Nats will have some attendance issues this year, especially if they fall out of the race very early (as I expect they will). However, as to last night:

1. Sunday night is not the most attractive time to go to a ballgame.

2. The crowd was still 50% larger than the Orioles' smallest crowd this year.

[AgentOrange]

The Nats will have some attendance issues this year, especially if they fall out of the race very early (as I expect they will). However, as to last night:

1. Sunday night is not the most attractive time to go to a ballgame.

2. The crowd was still 50% larger than the Orioles' smallest crowd this year.

Come on Frobby.

This is only the 2nd year of the team.

I would understand if this was like the 5th or 6th and they were still at RFK.

As a Gnats fan, I would think they is plenty to be excited about.

I mean come on, you actually have a team now, go out and support them.