Organizational Turmoil?

[banks703]

Hays being my favorite Oriole of the last five years or so notwithstanding, I have noticed and pointed out some questionable behavior from him this year. I attested it to him not performing and having to watch others succeed in his place but if there is more to it than that, I would be more disappointed. Someone else mentioned his not appearing to celebrate the success of others. That occurred pretty regularly if I am remembering correctly (unless it was Ced doing something positive).

I would be extremely disappointed if it turned out that he was a negative presence in the clubhouse. 

[Roll Tide]

19 minutes ago, Safelykept said:

.797 talk about SSS on 36 ABs, what about last year comparible SSS .218, >643 for career (only 200 ABs) Play or trade him its only fair.

He can’t play of they don’t put him in the lineup. I was responding to a post about them performing when they get a chance. This year he’s sone that …. I agree play or trade.

[emmett16]

2 hours ago, Roll Tide said:

@hgizzle what is so hard to understand about what I said? The stupid look emoji is well stupid. Offer some thoughts to the conversation. Thanks 

1. Lack of direction is laughable 

2. prospect hoarding is hyperbole. Would you have rather had Vavra instead of Norby when Mateo went down?

3. We have the best offense in MLB by OPS+ and top 3 in almost every category.

4. You don’t think Gunnar will Come around and is just in a defensive slulp? I do.  HK is just getting his feet under him and learning to play with the second deck.

I’ll give you the point on poor BP construction.  That could have been avoided.  

Edited July 27 by emmett16

[emmett16]

3 minutes ago, banks703 said:

Hays being my favorite Oriole of the last five years or so notwithstanding, I have noticed and pointed out some questionable behavior from him this year. I attested it to him not performing and having to watch others succeed in his place but if there is more to it than that, I would be more disappointed. Someone else mentioned his not appearing to celebrate the success of others. That occurred pretty regularly if I am remembering correctly (unless it was Ced doing something positive).

I would be extremely disappointed if it turned out that he was a negative presence in the clubhouse. 

You could tell he was a salty dog in the first month when Cowser was going off and the writing was on the wall. 
 

It’s unfortunate, I was a big fan also.  He was a gamer and always super nice with fans before & after games.  I wish him the best.  

[sportsfan8703]

I will say this, I believe it was the 2013 season that we went into with like 5-6 players on expiring deals and we all thought that would be a motivator for them to have big years and hit FA. Well, we sort crashed back to earth in 2013 after breaking out in 2012. 

[Roll Tide]

2 minutes ago, banks703 said:

Hays being my favorite Oriole of the last five years or so notwithstanding, I have noticed and pointed out some questionable behavior from him this year. I attested it to him not performing and having to watch others succeed in his place but if there is more to it than that, I would be more disappointed. Someone else mentioned his not appearing to celebrate the success of others. That occurred pretty regularly if I am remembering correctly (unless it was Ced doing something positive).

I would be extremely disappointed if it turned out that he was a negative presence in the clubhouse. 

It seems that he went from wanting to be extended and finish his career here to being open to a trade. I don’t buy the other stuff other than him being competitive. There was the injury and illness early on that was attributed to his slow start. I think there is unhappiness about the indecision on players by Elias. If your a player stock piling and holding on to vets who aren’t part of the future have been issues.

[emmett16]

1 minute ago, Roll Tide said:

It seems that he went from wanting to be extended and finish his career here to being open to a trade. I don’t buy the other stuff other than him being competitive. There was the injury and illness early on that was attributed to his slow start. I think there is unhappiness about the indecision on players by Elias. If your a player stock piling and holding on to vets who aren’t part of the future have been issues.

You, me Hays, Bob, Bill, and Jerry all knew he had no future with this team.  The comments about an extension on his part were laughable.  It was at that exact moment the thought that he might become a challenge entered my mind.  The look on his face when Cowser hit his 2nd HR in Boston was pretty damning.  But again, I get it.  It’s human nature and his job was being taken from him right in front of him.  I can’t imagine being in his position. 
 

With all that said, he’s been nothing but a professional and I feel like this whole thing has been blown out of proportion and his comments were taken out of context to create a story.  

[Roll Tide]

4 minutes ago, emmett16 said:

1. Lack of direction is laughable 

2. prospect hoarding is hyperbole. Would you have rather had Vavra instead of Norby when Mateo went down.

3. We have the best offense in MLB by OPS+ and top 3 in almost every category.

4. You don’t think Gunnar will Come around and is just in a defensive slulp? I do.  HK is just getting his feet under him and learning to play with the second deck.

I’ll give you the point on poor BP construction.  That could have been avoided.  

Thanks @hgizzle 

 

1) I hear you … noted He didn’t help the team last season and so far the additions are modest. Despite the disdain towards Hays , I think we lost that trade. Dominquez is ok … an we will see if he’s able  keep up his recent success. Pache is garbage…. And the waste of a roster spot …late inning defense replacement… but you need a lead to put him in the game and hope you don’t need production from his bat cause your not getting it.

2) It would depend on what we had traded him for …. If it was in a package for Freddy Mercury …. Ummm I meant Cease, I wouldn’t be crying about it.

3) use stats that account for what they’ve been over the last 30-45 days as the earlier stuff isn’t helping you or the reality now

4) most likely but the defensive lapses need to stop… it had a direct effect on 2 straight games even though we got lucky and one one. He needs to play sound defense  especially when he’s struggling at the plate. If he can’t then move him back to 3rd and find a SS. 
 

Kjerstad looks shaky on routine fly balls … the move where he bends his elbow and basket catches fly balls is easy to see unless you d9nt want to see it.

[survivedc]

3 minutes ago, emmett16 said:

You, me Hays, Bob, Bill, and Jerry all knew he had no future with this team.  The comments about an extension on his part were laughable.  It was at that exact moment the thought that he might become a challenge entered my mind.  The look on his face when Cowser hit his 2nd HR in Boston was pretty damning.  But again, I get it.  It’s human nature and his job was being taken from him right in front of him.  I can’t imagine being in his position. 
 

With all that said, he’s been nothing but a professional and I feel like this whole thing has been blown out of proportion and his comments were taken out of context to create a story.  

FWIW, I have no issue with what he said in that gaggle, and anyone that does is kidding themselves. He didn't slander the Orioles, he just said he felt his current team has a better shot, which as a member of that team speaking to fans of that team, it's a perfectly reasonable thing to say. 

[Roll Tide]

5 minutes ago, emmett16 said:

You, me Hays, Bob, Bill, and Jerry all knew he had no future with this team.  The comments about an extension on his part were laughable.  It was at that exact moment the thought that he might become a challenge entered my mind.  The look on his face when Cowser hit his 2nd HR in Boston was pretty damning.  But again, I get it.  It’s human nature and his job was being taken from him right in front of him.  I can’t imagine being in his position. 
 

With all that said, he’s been nothing but a professional and I feel like this whole thing has been blown out of proportion and his comments were taken out of context to create a story.  

agreed …really he’s being replaced by Kjerstad lately as Cowser is replacing Mullins…that why I feel like we created a defensive hole. 

[banks703]

3 minutes ago, Roll Tide said:

I think there is unhappiness about the indecision on players by Elias. If your a player stock piling and holding on to vets who aren’t part of the future have been issues.

This has been my only criticism of ME and Co. If they are going to run the org more in-line with how the Rays operate then they have to fully commit to it, which means dealing players before they reach the last year of their deals. Yes, it results in a high turnover rate of the roster but until DR and team acquired the O's and signaled that they would be willing to entertain ME's recommendations on spending, churning the pipeline was the only realistic way that they were going to compete and sustain long-term success in the AL East.

I openly advocated for Joey Ortiz for a lonnnnggg time and truly believe that they wasted at least a year of his youth before finally moving him for Burnes. The trade has obviously worked out for both teams and for the players involved but if they're going to run the org like the O's, one of Jorge or Ramon should have been moved to clear the way for Joey. Everyone talks about the defensive alignment with Gunnar, JW, Mayo and JH.. well, of all of those players mentioned only Joey is a better defender than Gunnar and would have pushed him to Third. The Org chose JW over Joey and I'm perfectly fine with it and happy that Joey got his chance and is succeeding in Milwaukee. But they can't run the franchise halfway like the Rays because it has created this logjam of prospects at positions where they have established players/stars.

The Joey situation was a precursor to the Cowser/Kjerstad and Hays/Ant situation although I actually think that Ant is a candidate to be retained. Or he at least should be a candidate to be retained. Switch-Hitting power bats don't grow on trees and as much as I've enjoyed both Hays and Ced as Orioles, of the three old guard OFs, Ant is the one who I would spend my money on keeping for this title window.

It just seems that the roster management has been non (or half) committal for a while and that's probably lead to some of the sour grapes. I've noticed that Ced also doesn't seem to be enjoying this season very much. That might be his newborn baby, Crohn's, him not having a great year, uncertainty about his future with the club, etc. but much like Hays, he just hasn't seemed as much like that jovial guy who has always had a smile on his face. If moving on from the two of them means addition by subtraction, then so be it. I've always believed (and will always believe) that no one person is greater than the team. 

[survivedc]

Just now, Roll Tide said:

agreed …really he’s being replaced by Kjerstad lately as Cowser is replacing Mullins…that why I feel like we created a defensive hole. 

You have to realize that Elias is cognizant of the defensive issues in the outfield, which is why he got a 4th OF/defensive replacement, who you think is garbage. 

[banks703]

8 minutes ago, Roll Tide said:

Thanks @hgizzle 

 

1) I hear you … noted He didn’t help the team last season and so far the additions are modest. Despite the disdain towards Hays , I think we lost that trade. Dominquez is ok … an we will see if he’s able  keep up his recent success. Pache is garbage…. And the waste of a roster spot …late inning defense replacement… but you need a lead to put him in the game and hope you don’t need production from his bat cause your not getting it.

2) It would depend on what we had traded him for …. If it was in a package for Freddy Mercury …. Ummm I meant Cease, I wouldn’t be crying about it.

3) use stats that account for what they’ve been over the last 30-45 days as the earlier stuff isn’t helping you or the reality now

4) most likely but the defensive lapses need to stop… it had a direct effect on 2 straight games even though we got lucky and one one. He needs to play sound defense  especially when he’s struggling at the plate. If he can’t then move him back to 3rd and find a SS. 
 

Kjerstad looks shaky on routine fly balls … the move where he bends his elbow and basket catches fly balls is easy to see unless you d9nt want to see it.

I have posted repeatedly that Kjerstad is NOT a major league outfielder. This is why I think the Mayo to First Base talk is meh. If both Mayo and Kjerstad are on the roster, Kjerstad is the guy who should be moved to First Base. Mayo's capacity to handle Third Base is head and shoulders above Kjerstad's in the outfield. He should never play LF at OPACY. I would run RO'H out there before Kjerstad. 

[terpoh]

9 minutes ago, banks703 said:

This has been my only criticism of ME and Co. If they are going to run the org more in-line with how the Rays operate then they have to fully commit to it, which means dealing players before they reach the last year of their deals. Yes, it results in a high turnover rate of the roster but until DR and team acquired the O's and signaled that they would be willing to entertain ME's recommendations on spending, churning the pipeline was the only realistic way that they were going to compete and sustain long-term success in the AL East.

I openly advocated for Joey Ortiz for a lonnnnggg time and truly believe that they wasted at least a year of his youth before finally moving him for Burnes. The trade has obviously worked out for both teams and for the players involved but if they're going to run the org like the O's, one of Jorge or Ramon should have been moved to clear the way for Joey. Everyone talks about the defensive alignment with Gunnar, JW, Mayo and JH.. well, of all of those players mentioned only Joey is a better defender than Gunnar and would have pushed him to Third. The Org chose JW over Joey and I'm perfectly fine with it and happy that Joey got his chance and is succeeding in Milwaukee. But they can't run the franchise halfway like the Rays because it has created this logjam of prospects at positions where they have established players/stars.

The Joey situation was a precursor to the Cowser/Kjerstad and Hays/Ant situation although I actually think that Ant is a candidate to be retained. Or he at least should be a candidate to be retained. Switch-Hitting power bats don't grow on trees and as much as I've enjoyed both Hays and Ced as Orioles, of the three old guard OFs, Ant is the one who I would spend my money on keeping for this title window.

It just seems that the roster management has been non (or half) committal for a while and that's probably lead to some of the sour grapes. I've noticed that Ced also doesn't seem to be enjoying this season very much. That might be his newborn baby, Crohn's, him not having a great year, uncertainty about his future with the club, etc. but much like Hays, he just hasn't seemed as much like that jovial guy who has always had a smile on his face. If moving on from the two of them means addition by subtraction, then so be it. I've always believed (and will always believe) that no one person is greater than the team. 

How is Joey Ortiz a better SS than Gunnar, when Joey Ortiz isnt even playing SS for Milwaukee.

By their statcast page Gunnar is better in every defensive metric as well.

Edited July 27 by terpoh

[emmett16]

4 minutes ago, banks703 said:

I have posted repeatedly that Kjerstad is NOT a major league outfielder. This is why I think the Mayo to First Base talk is meh. If both Mayo and Kjerstad are on the roster, Kjerstad is the guy who should be moved to First Base. Mayo's capacity to handle Third Base is head and shoulders above Kjerstad's in the outfield. He should never play LF at OPACY. I would run RO'H out there before Kjerstad. 

They tried HK at 1B.  It didn’t go very well.