Here come the Heels!

[BrotherLowe]

Well, folks, I've remained very quiet to this point. I figured there was no reason to rub anyone's nose in it. And I must say, I'm impressed with the overall respect given to UNC after today's showing.

But...

how you can possibly think that UMD will KILL UNC in CP after they were down by over 40 at one point today, is beyond me.

Do I think it's a tough game for UNC? For sure. Is it possible for UMD to win that one? For sure. But again, I think Maryland will have to bring it's A game to that one, and UNC will have to help them out. Because if Carolina plays well, there ain't no way this Maryland team is beating them. Period.

I too was going to keep quiet, letting my early thread remarks regarding Carolina's depth and the game itself speak for me. But the comment that Maryland will KILL Carolina is ridiculous. The Terps are not on the same level in any way as the Heels, I said it before and it is even more obvious now. The Terps probably won't KILL anyone this year - they barely beat FSU at home a couple of weeks ago. And who can score besides Gilchrist???? Certainly not McCray, he was even worse than I predicted he'd be!

[Nuclear Dish]

I too was going to keep quiet, letting my early thread remarks regarding Carolina's depth and the game itself speak for me. But the comment that Maryland will KILL Carolina is ridiculous. The Terps are not on the same level in any way as the Heels, I said it before and it is even more obvious now. The Terps probably won't KILL anyone this year - they barely beat FSU at home a couple of weeks ago. And who can score besides Gilchrist???? Certainly not McCray, he was even worse than I predicted he'd be!

BTW, one thing the Maryland game showed is that UNC is even deeper than we thought. Now with Reyshawn Terry starting to get some serious minutes, they go a full 10-deep. That's just scary for opponents.

[calsmanystances]

Gary must be respected for resurrecting a dead program; taking it from the ashes to respectability and then to the level we all dreamed of-national champions. Along that route his stubborness was an asset-refusing to accept that UM could not be among the elite of the ACC (and ipso facto the nation). That we BELONGED at the top with Duke, UCONN, Kansas, Kentucky et al...However the last year and a half really has ticked me off. His stubborn refusal to see what is plain before him in game after game against ACC (and that caliber of competition) competition has made me so frustrated that I find myself having to walk away from watching the game.

Why, oh why, after the crap he has put up there for 3 years does he still start NCM? Why?? I try and go back and watch some tapes of games from the last few years and I see the same crap then that NCM does now-his refusal to pass, his shoot a 3 or drive against 4 defenders offensive game and, for me, the worst aspects of his game-his utter lack of anything resembling defense and his inability to rebound. Watching Hodge go by him time after last yr, watching him have 0 and 7 Turnovers against Wake convinced me that Gary would see the light and remove him from the lineup. It never happened BUT after the Wake game Gary did cut his minutes back and starting giving MJ a chnace to play. We ended up with an ACC Title that way.

Yet here we are in the new year and once again Gary is back to starting and playing NMC. He simply cannot play at the ACC level as a starter. His defense is too atrocious and his unwillingness to learn a mid-range game leads him to be a liability. He must be replaced. Not with DJ-Gary is too in love with DJ to see he not only cannot shoot but he has a very bad handle as well. Anything more than 18-20 a night for DJ is too much.

Give MJ a chance-putting him when we are down and he hasn't played all game and then yanking him after missing his first shot is not a chance. Start him for three games and see how he performs and how we do as a team. If after that he has done no better than NCM-fine. I can live with that. But until then my frustration will remain. Johnny G. simply has no help offensively.

MJ can ameliorate that situation.

McCray too often passes up wide open shots and is too timid to drive. A SG who refuses to shoot (forget his 17 shots saturday-most were taken when he was in with the bench as we were down by 30) is not a good thing. Travis is so busy guarding opposing centers who are 2 inches taller and 30 pounds heavier that he rarely looks for offense. Ekene has angered by settling all too often for 18 footers and not playing defense with his feet, but rather with his hands and this has lead to constant foul trouble. DJ-see above. Gist-hopeful. He needs a little time (freshaman are freshman) but at least he exhibits a post game with his little turnaround in the lane. I have hope for him.

Until a change is made Gilchrist will be the only threat and that will lead to oppnents doubling him and frustration in JG and all of us who are fans.

By the way to all who are apologists for all teams that they love regardless of the circumstances and wish to see no criticism at all-I am not advocating firing Gary. Thats not the point of the post.

By the way, congratulations to the UNC fans on this board. They have a good team, a good coach and a good right to trash our team/program-which they have not taken. I appreciate the lack of gloating. Good luck whenever it is that you play Puke.

[BrotherLowe]

Gary must be respected for resurrecting a dead program; taking it from the ashes to respectability and then to the level we all dreamed of-national champions. Along that route his stubborness was an asset-refusing to accept that UM could not be among the elite of the ACC (and ipso facto the nation). That we BELONGED at the top with Duke, UCONN, Kansas, Kentucky et al...However the last year and a half really has ticked me off. His stubborn refusal to see what is plain before him in game after game against ACC (and that caliber of competition) competition has made me so frustrated that I find myself having to walk away from watching the game.

Why, oh why, after the crap he has put up there for 3 years does he still start NCM? Why?? I try and go back and watch some tapes of games from the last few years and I see the same crap then that NCM does now-his refusal to pass, his shoot a 3 or drive against 4 defenders offensive game and, for me, the worst aspects of his game-his utter lack of anything resembling defense and his inability to rebound. Watching Hodge go by him time after last yr, watching him have 0 and 7 Turnovers against Wake convinced me that Gary would see the light and remove him from the lineup. It never happened BUT after the Wake game Gary did cut his minutes back and starting giving MJ a chnace to play. We ended up with an ACC Title that way.

Yet here we are in the new year and once again Gary is back to starting and playing NMC. He simply cannot play at the ACC level as a starter. His defense is too atrocious and his unwillingness to learn a mid-range game leads him to be a liability. He must be replaced. Not with DJ-Gary is too in love with DJ to see he not only cannot shoot but he has a very bad handle as well. Anything more than 18-20 a night for DJ is too much.

Give MJ a chance-putting him when we are down and he hasn't played all game and then yanking him after missing his first shot is not a chance. Start him for three games and see how he performs and how we do as a team. If after that he has done no better than NCM-fine. I can live with that. But until then my frustration will remain. Johnny G. simply has no help offensively.

MJ can ameliorate that situation.

McCray too often passes up wide open shots and is too timid to drive. A SG who refuses to shoot (forget his 17 shots saturday-most were taken when he was in with the bench as we were down by 30) is not a good thing. Travis is so busy guarding opposing centers who are 2 inches taller and 30 pounds heavier that he rarely looks for offense. Ekene has angered by settling all too often for 18 footers and not playing defense with his feet, but rather with his hands and this has lead to constant foul trouble. DJ-see above. Gist-hopeful. He needs a little time (freshaman are freshman) but at least he exhibits a post game with his little turnaround in the lane. I have hope for him.

Until a change is made Gilchrist will be the only threat and that will lead to oppnents doubling him and frustration in JG and all of us who are fans.

By the way to all who are apologists for all teams that they love regardless of the circumstances and wish to see no criticism at all-I am not advocating firing Gary. Thats not the point of the post.

By the way, congratulations to the UNC fans on this board. They have a good team, a good coach and a good right to trash our team/program-which they have not taken. I appreciate the lack of gloating. Good luck whenever it is that you play Puke.

I love Gary as a coach, even as a Heels fan. However, I think the biggest problem with MD right now is that the players he is recruiting just aren't turning out to be very good - OK, sure, but not good. McCray, Jones, Garrison, Ebekwe, Strawberry, Fofana, Caner-Medley. Other than Gilchrist, not many of those players would even start for the upper echelon ACC schools. They just aren't that good, and Gary needs to start recruiting more blue-chippers. The overachievers thing worked - once. But Juan Dixon and Lonny Baxter aren't waiting on every corner for Gary to give them a chance.

Carolina is back because of two things: good coaching (Roy), and a GREAT recruiting class two years ago (thanks Matt, we hardly knew ya), coupled with good recruiting the year before that (the Jawad Williams class) and this past year (Marvin Williams).

Gary can coach, but he has to step up the recruiting.

[BrotherLowe]

BTW, one thing the Maryland game showed is that UNC is even deeper than we thought. Now with Reyshawn Terry starting to get some serious minutes, they go a full 10-deep. That's just scary for opponents.

I did like the quotes from Felton saying that Terry was going to help them this year. But he would just be icing on the cake, and would allow them to rest McCants - or put him in his place if need be - every once in a while.

I think its important to point out that the Heels scored 109 points, and their leading scorer - McCants - only had 19! That is balance, and depth.

[calsmanystances]

BL-I agree with you 100%. Gary must get on the recruiting horse. I think Gary has expressed disdain more than once about the kowtowing that must be done to 17 year olds (I have seen Gary do it with a player I helped coach once and you could tell Gary hated that crap, not that I blame him).It is sad that a respected coach like Gary with a national title must do that crap-but it is a must.

I did not disagree with the recruitment of some of the players on that list-MJ was the number 2 rated SG 2 years back and has loads of talent both in his shooting and his leaping ability. He just needs a legit game chnace to show it; Ebekwe has size and great athleticism and played a tough schedule; TG was a MCD-AA at Dematha and DJ was known as a hard nosed player with a great attitude and good hops.

I knew TG would not be a star-I saw him play and knew his lack of athleticism would be a hinderance in the ACC but I felt (and still do) that he can be very solid. We are playing him out of position defensively-having him guard opposing 5's and its taking a lot out of him physically. He is a good shooter and solid position defender-we need more like him. What he is not, though, is a good help defender. He simply lacks the lateral footspeed to recover if UM is beat on the perimeter (an all too frequent occurence at the three, unfortunately) and he is located on the weakside.

I was a big fan of the recruitment of JG. At the time I was in the minority who thought he was clearly superior to our other target-Marshall Strickland. I had seen Strickland play and just didnt think he was cut out for PG duty. JG, on the other hand, was a tough SOB who put it all on the line and made some real tough shots. I love him.

I think the perfect player to recruit is a guy like Sean May. To me he is an advanced Baxter-undersized for the pro's but with better athleticism than LB. You just knew May would be at least a 3 year player. I would stay away from recruiting the "top of the top" because at best you would get a year. Its the May's of the world that should be aggressively pursued-top college talent but who will stay for at least a few years. NCM types should be avoided except as role players-the lack of athleticism and initial burst at such an athletic spot (the 3) is a killer in the ACC, as is the lack of competition he faced in HS. Combining those two attributes just made him what he is today and that aint good.

Appreciate your perspective BL-you do seem to know your stuff.

[Nuclear Dish]

I think the perfect player to recruit is a guy like Sean May. To me he is an advanced Baxter-undersized for the pro's but with better athleticism than LB. You just knew May would be at least a 3 year player. I would stay away from recruiting the "top of the top" because at best you would get a year. Its the May's of the world that should be aggressively pursued-top college talent but who will stay for at least a few years.

Mike, the key these days is finding the proper mix between the Sean May's and Luol Deng's of the recruiting world. If you can recruit a Marvin Williams and have him put you over the top for his one year, he's worth it. You can't win championships with only guys like May, unless you hit the jackpot and find yourself with an Emeka Okafor and a Ben Gordon at once. And even they had Charlie Villanueva, who was supposed to have been a 1-year guy.

[Mackus]

Mike, the key these days is finding the proper mix between the Sean May's and Luol Deng's of the recruiting world. If you can recruit a Marvin Williams and have him put you over the top for his one year, he's worth it. You can't win championships with only guys like May, unless you hit the jackpot and find yourself with an Emeka Okafor and a Ben Gordon at once. And even they had Charlie Villanueva, who was supposed to have been a 1-year guy.

I agree. That was exactly the case in Maryland's championship run. They had 4-year guys like Dixon and Baxter as the heart of the team, but it was Wilcox who really put them over the top.

[BrotherLowe]

Mike, the key these days is finding the proper mix between the Sean May's and Luol Deng's of the recruiting world. If you can recruit a Marvin Williams and have him put you over the top for his one year, he's worth it. You can't win championships with only guys like May, unless you hit the jackpot and find yourself with an Emeka Okafor and a Ben Gordon at once. And even they had Charlie Villanueva, who was supposed to have been a 1-year guy.

Bingo, I was thinking this and you beat me to it. Not only that, but if you recruit a few of the great talents, like a McCants, you never know, he may wind up staying anyway. Fortunately, there are still some kids who seem to understand that staying in school is what's best for them. Certainly McCants' stock will rise considerably if he proves he can continue to shoot the ball, and if he proves that he is coachable, which so far this year he is doing. I think the big thing if you do recruit a guy who is likely to leave very early is, prepare for it. A guy like Wilcox leaving early hurts you more, because nobody could have foreseen that happening before it did. But if a guy like DaJuan Wagner or someone else like that who flirted with the NBA out of high school leaves after one year, you should be prepared to re-stock your program, because you had to know it was coming. I think Coach K was surprised that Deng left when he did (as was I, he had stated numerous times how much he valued his education), and he wasn't quite ready to re-load as quickly as he had after the Brand class defected.

[BrotherLowe]

BTW, I'm glad I found this board on here. This discussion beats the heck out of anything that has been beaten to death on the O's board the past month!

[Nuclear Dish]

I think Coach K was surprised that Deng left when he did (as was I, he had stated numerous times how much he valued his education), and he wasn't quite ready to re-load as quickly as he had after the Brand class defected.

I think The Rat was more shocked by Livingston not coming in for even a year than he was by Deng leaving. What a terrific offseason that was!

BTW, I just saw a mock draft that had Marvin Williams going #1, Chris Paul going #2, McCants going #8, Felton going #9, Gilchrist going #11, Jarred Jack going #24, and Jawad Williams going #28. 2nd rounders from the ACC were Hodge (#33), Elder (#35), Ewing (#36), Schenscher (#49), and Muhammad of GT (#51).

That's 4 UNC players in the first round, and 4 GT players overall.

[calsmanystances]

Brian you are exactly right in the 'star' comment. I did not mean to say that none of the players you recruit should be the Shaun Livingston's or Deng's or Marv Williams-I just meant that if you have 4 scholarships available go after 3 very solid players (May's, Gilchrists, Wayne Simien...) and one true superstar who most likely will bolt after one yr (2 tops) Wilcox worked out perfectly for UM by giving Juan and LB that one missing piece-a big guy with such superior natural ability that he can push them through the final 4. (By the way when we got Chris I was laughed at by other fans when I said he was a true stud and that Scooter Sherril was absolutely nothing compared to him!!)

Where UM has gone wrong is that in a class of 4 players we have 3 guys like NCM who aren't cut out for a starting role on a final 4 team. If the other 3 were all recruits like JG then fine. But if they are all DJ and McCray types then trouble will ensue.

That happy balance is tough but it must be met. No longer can we classes of multiple players all of whom are mediocre 60-80 type players. You do not need 4 top 20 guys, but you do need 2-3 20-35 types if you have a class of 4 players to be signed. I fear more trouble ahead. JG will most likely leave after the season leaving us with the same team minus our only true difference maker. Our class for next yr includes one player-Clark. Again, a guy who can be ok but not a 17-18 point 9 rebound guy. Certainly he does not play PG! I am more optimistic about the current Jr.'s year but that remains to be seen.

BL-you are right about this board. The O's board is depressing (how could it not be? my brother and I still cry remembering Cal's catch in 83' since we fear it'll never happen again!). This area is the way to rationally talk about sports-and amongst UM-UNC fans makes it more surprising! We do not have our eyes closed to reality here yet we can do so constructively. BL and ND are really assets to this discussion. But Duke fans allowed

[Max Power]

Mike, the key these days is finding the proper mix between the Sean May's and Luol Deng's of the recruiting world. If you can recruit a Marvin Williams and have him put you over the top for his one year, he's worth it. You can't win championships with only guys like May, unless you hit the jackpot and find yourself with an Emeka Okafor and a Ben Gordon at once. And even they had Charlie Villanueva, who was supposed to have been a 1-year guy.

Emeka wasnt that highly recruited out of college and really developed once he got to UConn and to a lesser extent so did Gordon. Villanueva was the most highly touted player on that team out of high school and really wasnt all that important to UConn last year (Boone was a much bigger piece).

I think your missing the key to most of these teams and that is having players who have been around for a couple years who know their roles. Players like Taliek Brown, Jawad Williams, or Steve Blake arent considered stars but I cant see any of these teams being anywhere near as good without them. The other fact that UNC's three best players are all juniors now is another reason why they are so good early in the season. Come March other teams will have caught up some but right now they should be steamrolling most of the competition who havent played together as much as they have.

[BrotherLowe]

I think The Rat was more shocked by Livingston not coming in for even a year than he was by Deng leaving. What a terrific offseason that was!

BTW, I just saw a mock draft that had Marvin Williams going #1, Chris Paul going #2, McCants going #8, Felton going #9, Gilchrist going #11, Jarred Jack going #24, and Jawad Williams going #28. 2nd rounders from the ACC were Hodge (#33), Elder (#35), Ewing (#36), Schenscher (#49), and Muhammad of GT (#51).

That's 4 UNC players in the first round, and 4 GT players overall.

Well, I was hoping to have Marvin around for at least his Soph years, but if projections like that keep showing up, he'll be gone. Frankly, I did not know he was THAT highly rated. He certainly is very raw, but does have a lot of skills, including potential for a mid range jumper, which he will have to have in the pros. Hopefully, if he goes, Roy will have the B/U plan, because that would quite a blow to any program. Plus they lose role player Melvin Scott as well, he's a senior. I think Felton will stay, I don't know why, but I think he will. Has that ever happened before, four first rounders from one team? Not saying it will definitely happen, but geez thats crazy.

[calsmanystances]

Brian and BL do you ever have what if moments about Curry and JR Smith??

Next yr could be difficult for UNC too, if McCants, May and Marv go early. They'd be losing 6 guys in the rotation (Scoot, Jawad and Manuel as well) Not easy to recover from even with a stellar freshman class (unless its the equivalent of either the fab 5 or Duk'e class of Brand, Battier, Avery et al...)