Could the Angels be after Tejada again?

[Flosman]

If Money was not object you would have both. But I agree that Miggy is more valuable because he is atleast average at a more important Defensive position. I also would add that those 12 guys that are better than Miggy are not anywhere near him offensively and the difference is not made up with the glove.

[NewOrioleWork]

What difference does Tejada's position in the field make when he's hitting in the line-up?

Odd.

Mind you, I completely understand what you're saying and see the logic behind it.

But from my reading and posting here on the Hangout, I was under the impression that offensive expectations for players varied from position to position.

In otherwords, the expected minimum offensive output for a OF, DH or 1B is higher then for a SS or 2nd basemen or catcher.

Therefore, even though Manny is an OVERALL better offensive producer, considering the fact that Miggy produces great numbers with decent (though declining [in terms of range] perhaps) defense at a position with low expectations makes him just as good, if not a better player.

Though, again, the idea of "offense relative to positon" is a new one introduced to me upon hanging out at the OH, so perhaps I don't understand it fully. Feel free to enlighten if need be.

--Alexander

[knuckler]

He is not more valuable than Manny but he is a lot cheaper.

What difference does Tejada's position in the field make when he's hitting in the line-up?

I think SG was trying to address your comment about value, which implies overall value, not just offensive value. Tejada's WARP3 the last two seasons was 12.3 and 10.1. Manny's? 7.7 and 8.1.

The reason why position does matter is because it's harder to find a shortstop who can hit like Tejada. With the offensive production you get at short, it wouldn't be that hard to find a corner OF to surpass what Manny would do for you in left(overall production SS+LF).

Tejada may not be a great defensive shortstop, but he's clearly servicable at the position. I am not so sure how many GM's would take Manny over Tejada even if money was not involved. Obviously, he's better offensively, but overall I would rather have Miggy.

[Sports Guy]

Odd.

Mind you, I completely understand what you're saying and see the logic behind it.

But from my reading and posting here on the Hangout, I was under the impression that offensive expectations for players varied from position to position.

In otherwords, the expected minimum offensive output for a OF, DH or 1B is higher then for a SS or 2nd basemen or catcher.

Therefore, even though Manny is an OVERALL better offensive producer, considering the fact that Miggy produces great numbers with decent (though declining [in terms of range] perhaps) defense at a position with low expectations makes him just as good, if not a better player.

Though, again, the idea of "offense relative to positon" is a new one introduced to me upon hanging out at the OH, so perhaps I don't understand it fully. Feel free to enlighten if need be.

--Alexander

This is exactly right.

If you looked at both players from a DH only standpoint, than Manny is the better player.

But looking at the whole scope of things, Tejada is definitely more valuable.

[vab]

Why should the O's want Mathis?

Read it again.

[TonySoprano]

That's fine and if more than 5 GM's said Manny, i would be surprised.

Let me know how your survey of them turns out, will you?

[TonySoprano]

Odd.

Mind you, I completely understand what you're saying and see the logic behind it.

But from my reading and posting here on the Hangout, I was under the impression that offensive expectations for players varied from position to position.

In otherwords, the expected minimum offensive output for a OF, DH or 1B is higher then for a SS or 2nd basemen or catcher.

You're right about expectations. Traditionally, the power guys were in left field, right field, and first base. Having a power guy at shortstop would ordinarily be an advantage assuming you also had power at the traditional positions as well. That's not the case with the Orioles in terms of the "traditional" power positions.

If you have an above average hitting shortstop and a below average hitting outfielder, you are not any better off from an offensive standpoint than by having a below average shortstop and an above average outfielder. More to the point, will Miggy/Conine produce more than Gonzalez/Manny?

The bottom line is Manny has a higher OPS and hits for more power than Miggy. mano y mano, Manny wins.

[El Gordo]

You're right about expectations. Traditionally, the power guys were in left field, right field, and first base. Having a power guy at shortstop would ordinarily be an advantage assuming you also had power at the traditional positions as well. That's not the case with the Orioles in terms of the "traditional" power positions.

If you have an above average hitting shortstop and a below average hitting outfielder, you are not any better off from an offensive standpoint than by having a below average shortstop and an above average outfielder. More to the point, will Miggy/Conine produce more than Manny/Gonzalez?

The bottom line is Manny has a higher OPS and hits for more power than Miggy.

If this is true then what is the meaning of WARP? Why is Miggy's higher?

[Sports Guy]

Let me know how your survey of them turns out, will you?

Ok, i just got off of the phone with all them....28-2...See, i was right!

[TonySoprano]

If this is true then what is the meaning of WARP? Why is Miggy's higher?

I could be very well wrong, but is WARP position specific? In other words, for example, is Tejada's value over replacement in terms of the average player at his position? Considering that shortstop is an overall lower production position than leftfield than that would account for the difference.

[TonySoprano]

Ok, i just got off of the phone with all them....28-2...See, i was right!

I demand a recount.

[Sports Guy]

I could be very well wrong, but is WARP position specific? In other words, for example, is Tejada's value over replacement in terms of the average player at his position? Considering that shortstop is an overall lower production position than leftfield than that would account for the difference.

Wins above replacement player.

So, yes, it is done by position.

[Sports Guy]

I demand a recount.

Well, Cashman was on the fence but since he has JEter and AROd, i "gave" him a Manny vote just for you.

[TonySoprano]

Well, Cashman was on the fence but since he has JEter and AROd, i "gave" him a Manny vote just for you.

What does Cashman know? He has his best shortstop at third base and his best second baseman at shortstop?

[El Gordo]

I could be very well wrong, but is WARP position specific? In other words, for example, is Tejada's value over replacement in terms of the average player at his position? Considering that shortstop is an overall lower production position than leftfield than that would account for the difference.

I was thinking VORP not WARP. My bad. However VORP is not position specific and Miggy is ranked 7 with 26.2 and Manny 23 with 19.4, whatever that means.