CNN/SI: Gibbons received shipments of steriods

[AgentOrange]

And it really doesn't matter who is friends/teammates/etc. with who.

I never said just because they are friends. They work out together. There is a little difference there. I never accused anyone. I just said that there is a chance they could be linked.

[Jenner8675309]

I never said just because they are friends. They work out together. There is a little difference there. I never accused anyone. I just said that there is a chance they could be linked.

I know accused is different than linked to, or under suspicion. With something like this though, once your "associated" with the dirty deed it follows you forever. You're guilty until proven innocent. Its just a shame for anyone associated on whatever level with the alleged party.

[AgentOrange]

I know accused is different than linked to, or under suspicion. With something like this though, once your "associated" with the dirty deed it follows you forever. You're guilty until proven innocent. Its just a shame for anyone associated on whatever level with the alleged party.

I agree, it is a shame. Baseball brought this on itself though. So I am not too upset over it.

They could reverse it just as easy, no one is stepping up to do it, however.

[Jenner8675309]

I agree, it is a shame. Baseball brought this on itself though. So I am not too upset over it.

They could reverse it just as easy, no one is stepping up to do it, however.

Absolutely, no doubt about it. Its def gonna get worse before it gets better (dealt with).

[weams]

Cheating at baseball is one thing, but I find it darn near impossible to believe that Brian Roberts could even be capable of doing something as devious as framing another player in the process. That's really wild, uncalled for speculation (unless you meant to use a or didn't out of a moral opposition to emoticons).

I think he was suggesting that as his former workout partner, Hairston might have been the source of whatever steroids it was purported that he took. Again I may have misunderstood the poster and if so I appologize.

I think Canseco was correct when he stated that a large percentage (majority) of major league players used inappropriate supplements at one time or another.

http://www.thelosscolumn.com/archives/777

[FellsPointOsFan]

I think they should declare an amnesty on all previous use and then adopt a draconian Olympic-style anti-doping policy (storing blood samples, etc.).

Leave the Hall of Fame business and reputation up to the marketplace of public opinion.

It is outrageous that a handful of players unluckly enough to get caught are bearing the punishment for the entire sport's negligence (owners and media included).

Or we can just switch to the NFL moral standard, which appears to be "suspend, forgive, and forget."

[weams]

I think he was suggesting that as his former workout partner, Hairston might have been the source of whatever steroids it was purported that he took. Again I may have misunderstood the poster and if so I appologize.

I think Canseco was correct when he stated that a large percentage (majority) of major league players used inappropriate supplements at one time or another.

http://www.outsidepitch.com/cover/0503roberts.html

This past winter Roberts and Hairston spent six days a week with workout and athletic performance guru Mark Verstegen and about two dozen other major and minor leaguers, including Oriole teammates Jay Gibbons and Darnell McDonald. Every Monday, Tuesday, Thursday and Friday from mid-November up until a week before spring training, Roberts would go to Vestegen’s workout center in Tempe, Arizona, from about nine in the morning until four in the afternoon. On Wednesdays and Saturdays they put in a half day’s work. On the full days Roberts would undergo physical conditioning twice a day, sandwiched around baseball workouts.

[66-70-83-??]

I think they should declare an amnesty on all previous use and then adopt a draconian Olympic-style anti-doping policy (storing blood samples, etc.).

Leave the Hall of Fame business and reputation up to the marketplace of public opinion.

It is outrageous that a handful of players unluckly enough to get caught are bearing the punishment for the entire sport's negligence (owners and media included).

Or we can just switch to the NFL moral standard, which appears to be "suspend, forgive, and forget."

I agree with you that an amnesty program followed up by a "serious" anti-doping policy is a good idea.

But, as far as a handful of players bearing the punishment ? That is all on them. Life isn't fair. They put themselves in that position and are the only ones that can change that by coming clean.

The owners/commish are not to blame for the steroids problem. The owners/commissioners have always wanted a drug testing program but Fehr and the boys (MLBPA) wouldn't budge at all until they were already a laughingstock in the pubic's eye on the steroid issue.

Blaming an owner for a players steroid abuse is like a motorist blaming the state trooper for his reckless driving.

[weams]

I agree with you that an amnesty program followed up by a "serious" anti-doping policy is a good idea.

But, as far as a handful of players bearing the punishment ? That is all on them. Life isn't fair. They put themselves in that position and are the only ones that can change that by coming clean.

The owners/commish are not to blame for the steroids problem. The owners/commissioners have always wanted a drug testing program but Fehr and the boys (MLBPA) wouldn't budge at all until they were already a laughingstock in the pubic's eye on the steroid issue.

Blaming an owner for a players steroid abuse is like a motorist blaming the state trooper for his reckless driving.

Jose Antionio, PhD - Way to Go and Criticize Media/Congress on AAS

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseba...ce_on_steroids/

Dissenting voice on steroids

By Gordon Edes | March 20, 2005

Email: edes@globe.com

Then there is this side of the steroids debate, the one you didn't hear on Capitol Hill last Thursday, when Mark McGwire shrank in front of America's eyes and a congressional panel battered Major League Baseball from alabaster pillar to marble post.

"This all reminds me of `Reefer Madness,' " said Jose Antonio, executive director of the International Society of Sports Nutrition, "when they told you that if you smoked pot you'd go crazy.

"Now they're saying that if you take steroids you die? When did steroids become lethal? More people died of Benadryl and Tylenol overdoses than ever died from anabolic steroids. When did you ever hear of an anabolic steroid overdose? You haven't, because it can't happen."

Antonio has a PhD from the University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center in Dallas. He did a post-doctoral fellowship and did a study on anabolic steroids that was published by the Canadian Journal of Applied Physiology. He is the co-founder of the International Society of Sports Nutrition, and is the owner of Javalution Coffee Company in South Florida, which markets a high-energy coffee drink.

He is well-known among sports nutritionists and others in the fitness industry, having published dozens of articles in fitness magazines and authored a couple of books on sports supplements. On the society's website, Mark Verstegen, the athletic trainer who runs the gym used by Curt Schilling, Nomar Garciaparra, and a host of other pro athletes, is quoted as being delighted that his Athletic Performance Institute hosted a symposium conducted by Antonio's group.

Among his friends, Antonio said, is Bob Alejo, the personal trainer used by Jason Giambi, the Yankee first baseman who according to leaked grand jury testimony confessed to using steroids over a three-year period.

Antonio was not impressed by what he observed in Washington.

"It's like that line from the Jack Nicholson movie: `You don't want the truth, because you can't handle the truth,' " he said.

The notion, as put forth by several members of the congressional panel, that baseball needs a stricter testing program, much like the Olympic program, is laughable, he said.

"They're catching from 1 to 5 percent out of the 95 to 100 percent of athletes who use them," he said. "You talk to Olympic athletes, and they laugh. The NFL program, that's a joke, too."

What he heard last week in the hearings, he said, was a lot of ill-informed opinion.

"The athletes are 10 steps ahead of any testing program that is out there," Antonio contended.

The truth that no one wants to hear, he said, is that there is a monetary incentive for baseball and its players to have players who are bigger, stronger, and faster, and they can accomplish that through the safe use of anabolic steroids, which Antonio insists is not an oxymoron.

"There are good things associated with steroids," he said. "You're able to increase lean body mass and muscle mass with minimal side effects, with the right steroids, the right doses, and under the supervision of the right doctors."

When asked how prevalent steroids were in baseball, he said: "I definitely tend to agree with [Jose] Canseco and say it's more widespread than people think. You don't hear how anabolic steroids can be good for you, but that's an opinion shared by a lot of sports scientists. It's the same thing when they were saying things about creatine [a muscle-enhancing supplement], that it was bad for you. Me and my sports scientists friends laughed about that."

In the current climate, Antonio's position, which he insists is grounded in medical research, is an untenable one. The possession or use of anabolic steroids are federal offenses. But the greater point may be that despite the law -- and regardless of how strict a testing program is put in place -- steroids and other performance-enhancing substances aren't going away soon, and there is a need for more informed discussion. If significant portions of the fitness community are convinced of the positive effects of steroids, regardless of their legality, you can be sure they won't be going away.

[blueberryale77]

Blaming an owner for a players steroid abuse is like a motorist blaming the state trooper for his reckless driving.

A. If a state trooper is on the job and sitting by the side of the highway in his cruiser eating a donut, sees a reckless driver go by, and does nothing to stop the reckless driving even though stopping traffic offenders is supposed to be his job, he shares some responsibility if said reckless driver goes on to kill someone a mile down the road.

B. If the state trooper walks into a bar, sees a drunk, and gives the drunk instructions on how to outsmart law enforcement to get away with drunk driving, the state trooper shares some responsibility if said drunk goes out and kills someone with his car on the way home from the bar.

I'm 100% convinced MLB ownership and/or management did A. It remains to be seen whether they did B, although since there is no investigation into them we'll probably never know if they did or not.

[weams]

http://www.ergogenics.org/joseantonio.html

Antonio has a PhD from the University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center in Dallas. He did a post-doctoral fellowship and did a study on anabolic steroids that was published by the Canadian Journal of Applied Physiology. He is the co-founder of the International Society of Sports Nutrition, and is the owner of Javalution Coffee Company in South Florida, which markets a high-energy coffee drink.

He is well-known among sports nutritionists and others in the fitness industry, having published dozens of articles in fitness magazines and authored a couple of books on sports supplements. On the society's website, Mark Verstegen, the athletic trainer who runs the gym used by Curt Schilling, Nomar Garciaparra, and a host of other pro athletes, is quoted as being delighted that his Athletic Performance Institute hosted a symposium conducted by Antonio's group.

Among his friends, Antonio said, is Bob Alejo, the personal trainer used by Jason Giambi, the Yankee first baseman who according to leaked grand jury testimony confessed to using steroids over a three-year period.

Antonio was not impressed by what he observed in Washington. "It's like that line from the Jack Nicholson movie: `You don't want the truth, because you can't handle the truth,' " he said. The notion, as put forth by several members of the congressional panel, that baseball needs a stricter testing program, much like the Olympic program, is laughable, he said.

[Sapper]

I think they should declare an amnesty on all previous use and then adopt a draconian Olympic-style anti-doping policy (storing blood samples, etc.).

Leave the Hall of Fame business and reputation up to the marketplace of public opinion.

It is outrageous that a handful of players unluckly enough to get caught are bearing the punishment for the entire sport's negligence (owners and media included).

Or we can just switch to the NFL moral standard, which appears to be "suspend, forgive, and forget."

Good post. I'm not a big fan of selectively "making examples" out of certain players. Notice the teams these "examples" are coming from seem to hardly ever be Boston or New York - even Giambi pretty much skated compared to some others.

[blueberryale77]

http://www.ergogenics.org/joseantonio.html

Antonio has a PhD from the University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center in Dallas. He did a post-doctoral fellowship and did a study on anabolic steroids that was published by the Canadian Journal of Applied Physiology. He is the co-founder of the International Society of Sports Nutrition, and is the owner of Javalution Coffee Company in South Florida, which markets a high-energy coffee drink.

He is well-known among sports nutritionists and others in the fitness industry, having published dozens of articles in fitness magazines and authored a couple of books on sports supplements. On the society's website, Mark Verstegen, the athletic trainer who runs the gym used by Curt Schilling, Nomar Garciaparra, and a host of other pro athletes, is quoted as being delighted that his Athletic Performance Institute hosted a symposium conducted by Antonio's group.

Among his friends, Antonio said, is Bob Alejo, the personal trainer used by Jason Giambi, the Yankee first baseman who according to leaked grand jury testimony confessed to using steroids over a three-year period.

Antonio was not impressed by what he observed in Washington. "It's like that line from the Jack Nicholson movie: `You don't want the truth, because you can't handle the truth,' " he said. The notion, as put forth by several members of the congressional panel, that baseball needs a stricter testing program, much like the Olympic program, is laughable, he said.

API has this on their web site trying to distance themselves from Antonio's statements:

03.27.05 - Tempe institue denounces steroids

TEMPE INSTITUTE DENOUNCES STEROIDS

Athletes Performance Institute, the training center in Tempe, Ariz., used by Curt Schilling and Nomar Garciaparra, among other elite athletes, sent a letter distancing itself from the pro-steroid views expressed in this column last week by Jose Antonio, executive director of the International Society for Sports Nutrition. API, whose company president, Mark Verstegen, was athletic trainer at Georgia Tech when Garciaparra was there, had hosted a symposium conducted by ISSN. But in a letter signed by Dan Burns, API's chief operating officer, and Amanda Carlson, API's nutrition and research manager, they made it clear that they did not share Antonio's views.

"Athletes Performance has a firm stand on the use of anabolic steroids in sport, which is that we don't support their use among athletes, period," they wrote. "The use of anabolic steroids for performance enhancement is illegal and unethical. At Athletes Performance, all athletes we train must sign a statement pledging to avoid all performance-enhancing drugs if they are to maintain the right to train with us. If athletes will not sign or violate this pledge, they cannot train with us. And yes, we have refused to train athletes for this very reason.

"Education on the dangers of performance-enhancing drugs is a major component of our program. Athletes leave here armed with the knowledge and tools they need -- across performance training, therapy, nutrition, regeneration, lifestyle topics, and everything else that impacts performance -- to thrive without resorting to illegal or unethical substances."

http://www.athletesperformance.com/#articles (you may have to navigate to the actual article itself after following that link... they're organized by date)

[66-70-83-??]

A. If a state trooper is on the job and sitting by the side of the highway in his cruiser eating a donut, sees a reckless driver go by, and does nothing to stop the reckless driving even though stopping traffic offenders is supposed to be his job, he shares some responsibility if said reckless driver goes on to kill someone a mile down the road.

B. If the state trooper walks into a bar, sees a drunk, and gives the drunk instructions on how to outsmart law enforcement to get away with drunk driving, the state trooper shares some responsibility if said drunk goes out and kills someone with his car on the way home from the bar.

I'm 100% convinced MLB ownership and/or management did A. It remains to be seen whether they did B, although since there is no investigation into them we'll probably never know if they did or not.

But, a trooper can pull me over and write me a ticket.

An owner had no power to enforce anything.

Remember, at least the commish/owners gave lipservice to wanting a testing program for years. And it was the MLBPA who would never negotiate that issue.

So, if an owner (pre- MLB drug testing) had suspicions about a player what was his options ?

Confront the player ? If so, would that embarrass/anger/alienate the player ?

Ask the player to volunteer to a drug test ? 99% of the players can't even own up to their drug use like a man when they are caught red-handed, so you know a voluntary test was out of the question.

Again, assuming for the sake of the discussions that owners knew for sure that a player(s) were taking steroids- what could they really have done ?

[weams]

API has this on their web site trying to distance themselves from Antonio's statements:

http://www.athletesperformance.com/#articles (you may have to navigate to the actual article itself after following that link... they're organized by date)

Good corollary reasearch. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out.

Interesting how indignant the denials have been so far.