Schmuck: O's need a middle of the order bat

[Moose Milligan]

There are some folks here that believe that our prospects will magically develop into an elite squad like this one (Ellsbury, Pedroia, Martinez, Youklis, Ortiz, Drew, Nady, Bucholz, Beckett, Wakefield, etc.) if we just sit back and wait.

Anyone find the irony in this statement? Anyone? Bueller?

[MemorialStadKid]

Anyone find the irony in this statement? Anyone? Bueller?

I get it.

But tell me that the success of the 2003-2009 Red Sox had nothing to do with free agency or trades?

They didn't develop Pedro Martinez, Kevin Millar, David Ortiz, Manny Ramirez, Derek Lowe, Jason Veritek or Victor Martinez. I could name more, but none come to my head right now.

The Red Sox did something that the Orioles could EASILY do: get some good free agents on the team WHILE the prospects develop in a professional, winning environment.

What's so hard about understanding how this can be a good thing?

MSK

[Moose Milligan]

The Orioles need to ramp up to that level and I think they'll have a prime opportunity to do that this offseason seeing as the market is drying up for the top players.

You'll be saying the same mantra again next offseason...hell, you'll be saying it every offseason. There's nothing super special about this offseason, please stop acting like there is.

I don't gamble but I'll bet there'll be some top of the rotation starter and some big bat and some other premium talent you'll be clamoring for in November 2010. Just a hunch.

[Moose Milligan]

I get it.

But tell me that the success of the 2003-2009 Red Sox had nothing to do with free agency or trades?

They didn't develop Pedro Martinez, Kevin Millar, David Ortiz, Manny Ramirez, Derek Lowe, Jason Veritek or Victor Martinez. I could name more, but none come to my head right now.

The Red Sox did something that the Orioles could EASILY do: get some good free agents on the team WHILE the prospects develop in a professional, winning environment.

What's so hard about understanding how this can be a good thing?

MSK

Because the 2002 Red Sox won 93 games.

Are we at that level yet?

[JTrea81]

There's nothing super special about this offseason, please stop acting like there is.

You're wrong here. A lot of teams that don't have money this offseason will have money next offseason and in future offseasons. Our payroll room advantage that we have now is going to be shortlived.

The Tigers, Red Sox, Yankees, Mets, Dodgers etc. all have major contracts coming off the books in the next few years. Just look at this chart of guaranteed salaries (not including arb players):

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=p4ew-fwu2XT3cpPRtt9qIGw

So we need to take advantage of that opportunity while we have it, otherwise, we'll have even more competition when we need to add a lot more pieces than if we ramp up now while we have a financial advantage.

[Florida_Osfan]

Sure, these posts can be found by looking up any thread that I have been a part of where there has been a suggestion to actually spend money on an elite free agent. I am tired of having that conversation.

There are some folks here that believe that our prospects will magically develop into an elite squad like this one (Ellsbury, Pedroia, Martinez, Youklis, Ortiz, Drew, Nady, Bucholz, Beckett, Wakefield, etc.) if we just sit back and wait.

The OH is not representative of the average Orioles fan or Baltimore resident who might be moved to spend money on the team if they *gasp* started looking like a real baseball team once in a while.

If anyone believes that the Orioles can continue tanking seasons for the sake of waiting for the prospects to develop and expect to have fans in 3-5 years, you are going to be in for a big shock.

Angelos can afford for the Orioles to keep losing, but the integrity of the franchise can't wait much longer.

MSK

He's asking that you back up your argument. The response can't be "look it up yourself." That's logic 101. But there is something truly flawed in your reasoning to the point that I'm surprised you haven't gone back, reread your post, and edited the content of it.

Guys like Ellsbury, Beckett, and the rest, according to you, are elite talent that developed largely because ownership was patient with them, yet it's suddenly "magical" and, thus implied, delusional for any O's fan to believe that through patience and time guys like Matusz, Tillman, and Arrieta will develop into the same kinds of players? The irony of your remark aside, and no disrespect otherwise intended, but that line of thinking is just out there.

And while the OH may not represent the "average" fan, I'm dying to know how one does define him/her. I'm an average fan, watching the games, paying attention to the minor leagues, etc. If by the average fan you mean impatient with the rebuilding process, dismissive of scouting reports that urge patience with our promising prospects, and the disregarding of some having quick, positive results, then are they really fans of the team?

And who is even suggesting the O's can keep tanking? I've never read a post that argues for it. Just because someone feels the younger players would benefit from more playing time--often resulting in losses--doesn't mean it's a vote for tanking.

Furthermore, the integrity is being restored by creating a solid foundation again. It's not going to be regained through some "treaian" insanity where we keep buying players that cost draft picks, under perform for large portions of their contract, and don't necessarily bring us into contention.

I for one need a winning team--just not the stupid, improvident way.

[MemorialStadKid]

Because the 2002 Red Sox won 93 games.

Are we at that level yet?

No, we aren't because of the world class ineptitude of the ownership that I am not convinced has been alleviated by the arrival of AM.

We could have been adding the pieces for years as the Red Sox did from 1998-2001. They had Lowe and Veritek as trades into their farm system.

They signed Manny Ramirez in 2000 for 8/160.

They traded for Pedro 1997 but signed him for 6/75.

So with our resources, you're telling me the best we could do in terms of trades/free agency are Eaton, Huff, Jay Payton, Kris Benson, Jaret Wright, Traschel, Ramon Hernandez and Kevin Millar?

Either Angelos is the cheapest man alive or his "baseball" people were incompetent.

Now, AM is in the house and has done great work with the infrastructure. Meanwhile, the Red Sox and Yankees do everything in their power to remain powerhouses. This small town approach to big league baseball will not reward dividends in the AL East.

I am not the only one who realizes this.

MSK

[Frobby]

The markets for Holliday, Bay and Lackey keep drying up day by day. All three can improve the Orioles and could come at a discount compared to the projected contracts people project. Out of the three I think only Holliday will get a 100+ million dollar contract

What makes you think the market is drying up for these three? I'm not disputing you, I just want to know what you are basing this statement on.

I just don't think we're in the market for Lackey. MacPhail pretty much said that today, and it's pretty clear he doesn't believe in spending huge dollars for pitchers due to the injury risk.

Holliday and Bay are interesting bats, but they really are kind of square pegs in a team with a couple of round holes. I don't have the sense that MacPhail is looking to do something like move a young outfielder to make room for one of these two. Of course, if the price is right, maybe his attitude changes.

[Moose Milligan]

You're wrong here. A lot of teams that don't have money this offseason will have money next offseason and in future offseasons. Our payroll room advantage that we have now is going to be shortlived.

The Tigers, Red Sox, Yankees, Mets, Dodgers etc. all have major contracts coming off the books in the next few years. Just look at this chart of guaranteed salaries (not including arb players):

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=p4ew-fwu2XT3cpPRtt9qIGw

So we need to take advantage of that opportunity while we have it, otherwise, we'll have even more competition when we need to add a lot more pieces than if we ramp up now while we have a financial advantage.

Trea, I distinctly remember you flipping out last offseason and saying we needed to land Tex because there wasn't going to be anything good in the 2009-2010 offseason.

Spare me the hysterics.

[MemorialStadKid]

Guys like Ellsbury, Beckett, and the rest, according to you, are elite talent that developed largely because ownership was patient with them, yet it's suddenly "magical" and, thus implied, delusional for any O's fan to believe that through patience and time guys like Matusz, Tillman, and Arrieta will develop into the same kinds of players? The irony of your remark aside, and no disrespect otherwise intended, but that line of thinking is just out there.

And while the OH may not represent the "average" fan, I'm dying to know how one does define him/her. I'm an average fan, watching the games, paying attention to the minor leagues, etc. If by the average fan you mean impatient with the rebuilding process, dismissive of scouting reports that urge patience with our promising prospects, and the disregarding of some having quick, positive results, then are they really fans of the team?

And who is even suggesting the O's can keep tanking? I've never read a post that argues for it. Just because someone feels the younger players would benefit from more playing time--often resulting in losses--doesn't mean it's a vote for tanking.

Furthermore, the integrity is being restored by creating a solid foundation again. It's not going to be regained through some "treaian" insanity where we keep buying players that cost draft picks, under perform for large portions of their contract, and don't necessarily bring us into contention.

I for one need a winning team--just not the stupid, improvident way.

Ellsbury and Beckett didn't come onto losing teams. That sometimes makes a big difference in how a player develops.

Why do so many people here advocate for the Orioles to lose when there's no guarantee that these prospects will pan out ever? You have to DO something in order to get better and I am sure we don't have to give up draft picks if people do their jobs in the warehouse and have one group examine which guys we can pick up for the best money that also don't result in the loss of favorable draft choices.

Isn't that their job?

It seems like AM is still doing what Angelos has done -- preach improvement, but let all the other teams take all the good players first.

Show me one off season since 2003 where that hasn't been the case. And yes, I also include those where AM has been "in charge."

MSK

[JTrea81]

What makes you think the market is drying up for these three? I'm not disputing you, I just want to know what you are basing this statement on.

Just read MLB Trade Rumors. The only teams that seem to be in on Holliday are the Mets and Cardinals with the Mets lurking. Lackey's only suitors seem to be the Mets and Angels and maybe the Yankees if they don't deal for Halladay.

I've seen more teams say they are out of pursuing top talent due to financial reasons, than have said they were in.

That likely won't be the case in the next couple of offseasons as payrolls continue to drop in MLB as contracts are shed.

The Orioles have the advantage now because they are one of the first teams that have dropped their payroll, so they can give more money up front to FAs and take on expensive contracts via trade, where teams like the Angels and Tigers can't do that. But those teams will be able to do that a year or two from now.

[Frobby]

Just read MLB Trade Rumors. The only teams that seem to be in on Holliday are the Mets and Cardinals with the Mets lurking. Lackey's only suitors seem to be the Mets and Angels and maybe the Yankees if they don't deal for Halladay.

I've seen more teams say they are out of pursuing top talent due to financial reasons, than have said they were in.

Eh, I've heard all that stuff before. I will believe it when I see it. Lots of teams play it cool until the deadline to offer arbitration passes, and then you see what's what. Things will move slowly until the Winter Meetings and then we will see.

[JTrea81]

Trea, I distinctly remember you flipping out last offseason and saying we needed to land Tex because there wasn't going to be anything good in the 2009-2010 offseason.

Spare me the hysterics.

Beggers can't be choosers. Tex was a perfect fit. Holliday and Bay may not be perfect fits, but they do fit each as a #4 hitter.

Lackey is a perfect fit as a TOR.

And as I've said we need to ramp up our talent. We can't just keep waiting until we find the perfect fit unless we want to continue to miss the playoffs year after year. We need as much talent as we can get and with our financial situation, this is a prime opportunity to add some talent IMO.

[Moose Milligan]

No, we aren't because of the world class ineptitude of the ownership that I am not convinced has been alleviated by the arrival of AM.

We could have been adding the pieces for years as the Red Sox did from 1998-2001. They had Lowe and Veritek as trades into their farm system.

They signed Manny Ramirez in 2000 for 8/160.

They traded for Pedro 1997 but signed him for 6/75.

So with our resources, you're telling me the best we could do in terms of trades/free agency are Eaton, Huff, Jay Payton, Kris Benson, Jaret Wright, Traschel, Ramon Hernandez and Kevin Millar?

Either Angelos is the cheapest man alive or his "baseball" people were incompetent.

Now, AM is in the house and has done great work with the infrastructure. Meanwhile, the Red Sox and Yankees do everything in their power to remain powerhouses. This small town approach to big league baseball will not reward dividends in the AL East.

I am not the only one who realizes this.

MSK

The 1996 Red Sox won 85 games

The 1999 Red Sox won 94 games

Have we reached either of those levels of competition yet?

Is there a pitcher of Pedro Martinez's caliber available right now?

Is there a hitter of Manny Ramirez's caliber available right now?

I wish I understood what you're getting at but I can't say that I do. I think you like to hear yourself get a full head of steam and post like a rabid, enthusiastic win at all costs die hard fanatic.

[Moose Milligan]

Beggers can't be choosers. Tex was a perfect fit. Holliday and Bay may not be perfect fits, but they do fit each as a #4 hitter.

Lackey is a perfect fit as a TOR.

And as I've said we need to ramp up our talent. We can't just keep waiting until we find the perfect fit unless we want to continue to miss the playoffs year after year. We need as much talent as we can get.

Hate to break it to you, but the Orioles franchise are beggars.

I agree with you, we need as much talent as we can get...but there are other ways to build a team, dude. I know you're not being intentionally obtuse so you must recognize that there are quite a few ways to skin a cat.