Time for Bergesen to go back down (update: Bergesen sent down)

[Sports Guy]

I think it is legit to raise this issue, even though I'm in favor of bringing up Arrieta. We've seen a lot of pitchers who had good ERA's, good K's but high walk rates come up to Baltimore and flounder, like Radhames Liz previously and Hernandez last year. I just don't see a better alternative to Arrieta at present.

Liz had terrible mechanics.

DH had a lot of other issues as well.

[ShaneDawg85]

It's tough to see Bergesen be sent down, because I love watching the guy pitch, and from everything he has said to watching him in the dugout and how he handles himself, he is a true professional. But last night was beyond painful. I honestly preferred watching some masterpieces of Daniel Cabrera to what I saw last night. A lot of people site the Wiggington error and the home run to Kotchman, but for me the most painful was giving up the base hit to 41 year old Ken Griffey Jr., who came in with one RBI and clearly offers nothing offensively. I love the guy, but lets face reality here.

Bergesen looked lost on the mound last night, like he had absolutely no idea what to do, and his reaction as he left the mound said it all. He was pissed, but at the same time in a complete state of disbelief. Hopefully things will begin to be worked out at Norfolk, and he'll be back soon. I believe he can be a good back of the rotation pitcher, but he's got issues to work on, and even for as bad as we are right now, Baltimore isn't the place for them.

Get back soon Brad!

[LookitsPuck]

Agreed Shane.

Get back, Bergy! We're pulling for you up here.

[Sports Guy]

Aren't you the guy who started a whole long thread yesterday (fixing the Orioles part 2 or something) with one of the major premises criticizing the development of young players and suggesting that we don't have a philosophy

Yes, which has nothing to do with this.

Walks matter.

Thank you Captain Obvious.

Look, I'm not saying Arrietta has to be perfect or that he needs to stay down until he's 35. No one said that. I am saying that 9 walks in 18 innings is not good.

Of course its not great...But you have to figure things out. Yesterday, he walked 3 batters...But he threw 61% of his pitches for strikes and 12 GOs...That is what you take away from the start.

There are very few big league pitchers that can walk a batter every 2 innings and be successful.

Yes, its only 3 starts. Lets give him a few more to see if he can perform better.

Well, he has one more...If he performs well, he is coming up.

There's 150 games left to see what he can do at the MLB level this season. I don't see why we can't give him more time to work on his control in a much less stressful environment. That's part of why you have a minor league system.

If his mechanics are sound and hitters in AAA can't do much, if anything, off of him than leaving him down accomplishes nothing.

[Frobby]

Liz had terrible mechanics.

DH had a lot of other issues as well.

I don't care that Liz had terrible mechanics. It doesn't matter to me why a pitcher walks a lot of guys, just that he does. Because big league hitters, especially the ones who play in our division, are more selective than minor league hitters, so a 4.5 walk rate at Norfolk may translate to 6.0 in Baltimore, and that would be a big problem.

That said, Arrieta has some big plusses going for him and I'm ready to give him a shot.

[RShack]

So, I guess Rshack thinks the Orioles are totally overreacting here?

As I said (and as you fully know I said), I was not able to watch him, I was just going by what people said in the game thread. For most of the time, nobody was saying he was lousy. People were saying he started out a little rough, but then started getting a series of GB-outs, which is what we want to see him do. During the bad inning, the game thread commentary was about how he should have been out of the inning if not for the lousy D, and how he seemed to lose the strike zone after pitching around Ichiro. Bergy himself became the main focus only when he got taken out after the dinger, at which point people said he looked like he was gonna cry. So, judging by that, it did seem rash for umpteen people to start clamoring for him to be sent down when shortly before that people were saying it looked like he was finally getting in a groove. It's not like people were saying that all along, it was only after he got taken out, then it rapidly became a bandwagon. It reminded me of when people say they knew DT should have taken out the P, but they say it only after a mistake, not before when the actual decision had to be made. Perhaps I would have thought otherwise had I been able to actually see what was happening, or not, no way to know...

[Sports Guy]

As I said (and as you fully know I said), I was not able to watch him, I was just going by what people said in the game thread. For most of the time, nobody was saying he was lousy. People were saying he started out a little rough, but then started getting a series of GB-outs, which is what we want to see him do. During the bad inning, the game thread commentary was about how he should have been out of the inning if not for the lousy D, and how he seemed to lose the strike zone after pitching around Ichiro. Bergy himself became the main focus only when he got taken out after the dinger, at which point people said he looked like he was gonna cry. So, judging by that, it did seem rash for umpteen people to start clamoring for him to be sent down when shortly before that people were saying it looked like he was finally getting in a groove. It's not like people were saying that all along, it was only after he got taken out, then it became a bandwagon. Perhaps I would have thought otherwise had I been able to actually see what was happening, or not, no way to know...

So basically, you took second hand accounts and instead of asking more questions, you jump on guys like Tony and say they are overreacting...yet you didn't even see it.

Interesting...If someone on here did that you would be writing 1500 word essays about how horrible it is for any of us to do something like that...yet, when you do it, its cool? How many times have you gotten on Trea for not watching the games and not seeing what the issues are?

Do the words, double standard mean anything to you?

[WEAVERMAN]

I think you have enough to send him down now. He was pretty bad in spring training minus that one start against the Yankees and he's been terrible and all three starts. His command is just terrible and his body language tells me he's really, really shaken by his inability to throw the ball where he wants.

If this was just a case of a guy missing some spots here and there I'd say give him a few more starts, but he looks like a wreck out there right now. With Arrieta dominating AAA, I think you make the switch now.

Hopefully he just needs more time to get back to where he was, because not only is his command off on both his sinker and slider, but the slider has backed up and is no where near the pitch it was last year.

It's tough to watch a guy melt down as quickly as he has, but his mound presence is absolutely terrible as well. Right now he doesn't look like a good Double-A pitcher.

You nailed it, Tony.

[Tony-OH]

Perhaps I would have thought otherwise had I been able to actually see what was happening, or not, no way to know...

Yet it doesn't stop you from making definitive statements now does it?

If I understand you right, you felt a need to tell everyone they were overreacting based on following what a few people were saying in the game thread? On top of the fact that most people said this is not all about one inning but his body of work this entire season, including spring training?

This really explains a lot about your posts.

[RShack]

So basically, you took second hand accounts and instead of asking more questions, you jump on guys like Tony and say they are overreacting...yet you didn't even see it.

I didn't jump on anybody. I said it sounded like an over-reaction. And, yes, I was basing that on what more-than-a-few people had said throughout the game in the game thread.

Interesting...If someone on here did that you would be writing 1500 word essays about how horrible it is for any of us to do something like that...yet, when you do it, its cool? How many times have you gotten on Trea for not watching the games and not seeing what the issues are?

Do the words, double standard mean anything to you?

What in the world are you rambling about? Over-reactions around here are an everyday occurrence. Please show me one time when I have criticized somebody for saying there was a message-board over-reaction. Face it, you can't do it.

Here's the funny part: Had I not gone by what people were saying in the game thread, then somebody would have said that I was "dissing the whole board" by not listening to what multiple people were saying in the game thread.

Now, having said that, it certainly appears that I was wrong. Note what I said: I was wrong, wrong, wrong. See how easy it is to say that? You should try it sometime...

[Stotle]

Eh, I'm fine with Bergie getting sent down to work on things. The fact remains that he has always been, and will always be, a pitcher with a slim margin for error. He has the option time, so go ahead and utilize AAA. But to the extent he goes through rough spells in the future, he is going to have to be able to work through it at the ML level, be it in the rotation or in the pen.

As an aside, this sort of issue is what many of us were talking about last year when we were pointing out that Bergesen was likely to regress some. It's just very difficult for any pitcher to be "on" all the time, and unfortunately for Bergesen the raw stuff requires that he not get too out of whack or he'll get hit hard.

[LookinUp]

I think it's foolish to ignore Arrieta's walks. The only way it isn't foolish is if the O's are thinking like Tony and want to start the process of moving him to the pen.

With Arrieta's walk rate too high, Erbe, Patton, Tillman and Bergesen struggling, the next top prospect who appears to be ready is...Britton.

Here's an over reaction for everyone. Let's just say that Arrieta walks 4 in 5/6 innings this weekend in Norfolk. Why not promote the new Wunderkind?

This may be a trick question.

[wickedwitch]

As an aside, this sort of issue is what many of us were talking about last year when we were pointing out that Bergesen was likely to regress some. It's just very difficult for any pitcher to be "on" all the time, and unfortunately for Bergesen the raw stuff requires that he not get too out of whack or he'll get hit hard.

Really? People expected him to lose control emotionally?

[RShack]

Really? People expected him to lose control emotionally?

I'm with you on this one. He seems to have gone from rattle-proof to easily-rattled. That's an internal thing, not a throwing thing.

ps: I believe he can fix it.

[Mackus]

Really? People expected him to lose control emotionally?

Where did he say that? He wasn't talking at all about his body language, didn't even mention it. Stotle is just talking directly to his stuff and how Bergesen can only succeed when he's at or very near his best. He's clearly nowhere near that right now and as such is getting pounded.