Times like these...

[TinCup]

I'm not saying you're supposed to do anything. I don't expect the tenor of any message-board (or talk-radio show) to be supportive. Not just this one, but any of them. I've never seen a sports message-board of any kind where people don't turn against players who are struggling. It's just the nature of message-boards. I'm not saying message-boards should change, I'm saying saying the O's should do whatever is necessary to have former-greats be part of the family, and one reason for that is because neither a struggling team nor players who are struggling get support from fans on message-boards or the radio. What they mainly get is criticism from fans who turn against them when they don't do well. While there are occasional exceptions for favorite players, as a general rule that's what happens. It's just a fact, that's all... you know it is... I don't see why people can't just admit it, instead of playing kill-the-messenger about it...

OK, what the hey.... (jumps into the fray even though he knows better)

Is criticism a bad thing? Is it wrong? You appear to be suggesting that "fans" should do nothing/nothing but "support" this long-standing LOSING team (let's call it what it is Shack, it's more than just a "a struggling" team). How do you then define "support"? I for one argue that criticism can be seen as a one way to support the team you cherish and root for. You want it to be better and so you attempt to critique what is wrong. That is not an evil, bad, or un-fan-like thing to do.

And most folks here are trying to "kill" your message, not you.

[RShack]

And I get called out for putting only words in his mouth? What you're putting in his mouth......well um;)

Ha!

To tell you the truth, I expect you to have higher standards... and, yes, I'm sure that just makes your day ;-)

[TinCup]

Or, if you can't kill the messenger, you can try to get the mods to kill the message...

.

Shack....go outside and scrunch your toes in the sand, take a deep breath of fresh air, gaze out upon the water, look up to the sky above. Life is good and there is more to it than taking things so damn seriously here.

and in fairness a few others could do the same

[NewMarketSean]

Rshack is asking O's fans to go against at least 100 years of sport fandom and maybe 50,000 years of human nature.

Losing breeds contempt. It is like ringing a bell every time you feed a dog. Soon the dog will hear the bell and think he is getting fed...and after a while, when he doesn't get fed, he is going to bite someone.

[Mackus]

I'm not saying you're supposed to do anything. I don't expect the tenor of any message-board (or talk-radio show) to be supportive. Not just this one, but any of them. I've never seen a sports message-board of any kind where people don't turn against players who are struggling. It's just the nature of message-boards. I'm not saying message-boards should change, I'm saying saying the O's should do whatever is necessary to have former-greats be part of the family, and one reason for that is because neither a struggling team nor players who are struggling get support from fans on message-boards or the radio. What they mainly get is criticism from fans who turn against them when they don't do well. While there are occasional exceptions for favorite players, as a general rule that's what happens. It's just a fact, that's all... you know it is... I don't see why people can't just admit it, instead of playing kill-the-messenger about it...

This is ridiculous.

What does "supportive" mean to you? We just have to blindly tell every player that they are always great? Is that being supportive? That's not what I'd want to hear from anyone who supports me when everything is going wrong and I and them both know it. "Its ok you're still really good" doesn't make you feel better when things clearly are sucking. It just makes you angry.

How are you showing your support? Please explain to us why you are so much better than the rest of us unsupportive malcontents.

[RShack]

OK, what the hey.... (jumps into the fray even though he knows better)

Is criticism a bad thing? Is it wrong? You appear to be suggesting that "fans" should do nothing/nothing but "support" this long-standing LOSING team (let's call it what it is Shack, it's more than just a "a struggling" team). How do you then define "support"? I for one argue that criticism can be seen as a one way to support the team you cherish and root for. You want it to be better and so you attempt to critique what is wrong. That is not an evil, bad, or un-fan-like thing to do.

I never said it was wrong. Look, some people deal with adversity and frustration by getting mad, lashing out, and talking about players like they are no-good pieces of meat who deserve whatever nasty crap gets said about them, not as actual people who are Orioles and who are trying-but-struggling. Other folks deal with disappointment and frustration in other ways. I'm not saying everybody's supposed to be the same. People are who they are, and they act however they act.

It is well known that internet environments where people are anonymous and hide behind fake screen names brings out the negative side of people. It is normal that message boards have lots of folks who can dish it out but who can't take it. I'm not talking about just-here, I'm talking about message-boards in general. It's just the nature of the beast, that's all...

And most folks here are trying to "kill" your message, not you.

Well, "most" people are not trying to do either one. A few would like to do either or both. As usual, it's the loud, angry ones who make a big impression...

[byrdz]

Tough love my friends. That's what the O's are rightfully getting from their fans. Like having an intervention for strung out relative. It's not going to be pleasant, and we love you, but get your s*** together man!

[TinCup]

Well, "most" people are not trying to do either one. A few would like to do either or both. As usual, it's the loud, angry ones who make a big impression...

I meant most folks in this thread........that's all.

[RShack]

Shack....go outside and scrunch your toes in the sand, take a deep breath of fresh air, gaze out upon the water, look up to the sky above. Life is good and there is more to it than taking things so damn seriously here.

and in fairness a few others could do the same

I don't know why you think I'm all upset about this. I'm not. There are some folks who have gotten all wound up about this, and who have lashed out with a lot of highly emotional BS that boils down to telling me to STFU... but that's them, not me.

BTW, I'm looking at the water right now ;-)

[DrungoHazewood]

I never said it was wrong. Look, some people deal with adversity and frustration by getting mad, lashing out, and talking about players like they are no-good pieces of meat who deserve whatever nasty crap gets said about them, not as actual people who are Orioles and who are trying-but-struggling. Other folks deal with disappointment and frustration in other ways. I'm not saying everybody's supposed to be the same. People are who they are, and they act however they act.

It is well known that internet environments where people are anonymous and hide behind fake screen names brings out the negative side of people. It is normal that message boards have lots of folks who can dish it out but who can't take it. I'm not talking about just-here, I'm talking about message-boards in general. It's just the nature of the beast, that's all...

Well, "most" people are not trying to do either one. A few would like to do either or both. As usual, it's the loud, angry ones who make a big impression...

I gotta say I don't really know what you expect out of sports fans. Do you really expect (even in a perfect world) fans to just calmly type "buck up sport, things will get better" into the interwebs over and over?

If that's what we're supposed to do, well, messageboards really need not exist. Most of what goes on is a debate over how to best run a team. When things go poorly that inevitably turns to what needs to change, and that involves getting rid of underperformers. Has nothing to do with personally disliking players, or rooting against them. At least not in the overwhelming majority of cases.

So, really, I don't know what you expect, except maybe a drastic change in human nature.

[DrungoHazewood]

I don't know why you think I'm all upset about this. I'm not. There are some folks who have gotten all wound up about this, and who have lashed out with a lot of highly emotional BS that boils down to telling me to STFU... but that's them, not me.

BTW, I'm looking at the water right now ;-)

Did you expect anything different when the first paragraph of this thread involved you chastising nearly the entire board for being normal sports fans, and therefore making the lives and jobs of the Baltimore Orioles harder?

[RShack]

Rshack is asking O's fans to go against at least 100 years of sport fandom and maybe 50,000 years of human nature.

Losing breeds contempt. It is like ringing a bell every time you feed a dog. Soon the dog will hear the bell and think he is getting fed...and after a while, when he doesn't get fed, he is going to bite someone.

Well, first off, I'm not asking O's fans to do anything... except to show up at the ball yard when BOS and the MFY's come to town, instead of selling their tickets at a profit.

Second off, don't confuse this place with all of Oriole fandom. We're just a tiny segment of Oriole fandom.

Third, when you say it's been the same for at least 100 years, that's just another case of you being wrong as usual. Before the internet and shout-radio, the general tone of baseball discussion wasn't anything like this. Modern media has transformed it into being louder, angrier, and meaner than it ever was before. Part of it is because people can say whatever they want and hide, so they spew crap all over the place. I'm not saying everybody was nice before, but I am saying the general tenor was much nicer before. Sure, there might be some loudmouth in the bar who thought he knew everything and everybody else was an idiot, but it wasn't nearly as common as it is these days.

Plus, when people were face to face, you couldn't get away with the crap that people routinely pull on a message board. If it was face to face in a bar, and if somebody came across with the steady diet of negative crap that you spouting here every season before you run off to watch the Ravens, a couple or three guys would not have gotten in a pissing contest with you about it. They might have picked you up and dunked your head in the toilet, but they wouldn't have wasted time arguing with you ;-)

[RShack]

I gotta say I don't really know what you expect out of sports fans. Do you really expect (even in a perfect world) fans to just calmly type "buck up sport, things will get better" into the interwebs over and over?

If that's what we're supposed to do, well, messageboards really need not exist. Most of what goes on is a debate over how to best run a team. When things go poorly that inevitably turns to what needs to change, and that involves getting rid of underperformers. Has nothing to do with personally disliking players, or rooting against them. At least not in the overwhelming majority of cases.

So, really, I don't know what you expect, except maybe a drastic change in human nature.

I'm not sure how many times I have to say this, so I'll say it again...

I fully expect the nature of message boards to be what it is. It is not an environment that is conducive to supporting either the team or individual players when they are struggling. Rather, it is an environment in which players are lauded when they play well and help posters feel good, and are lambasted when they struggle, mainly because that makes posters feel bad. So, when the typical player plays well, posters like him, and when he struggles, posters turn against him. It is what it is, and it happens on message-boards everywhere. It is a phenomenon that is larger than any particular person or group of persons. The same thing is true of talk-radio. I do not expect any of this to change.

Given that message-boards and sports-radio are the places where a subset of fan opinion can be readily sampled, this means that when the team struggles, the main feedback is going to be critical and hostile. This is because of how sports radio and message boards work. It happens because of nobody-and-everybody, and it happens everywhere. It is what it is. To me, this is yet another reason why it would be good to involve former-Oriole-greats as members of the Oriole family, because they can offer legitimate casual support to current Orioles when times are hard, which is precisely when support is needed and is precisely when they are not gonna get support from either message-boards or talk-radio, they're gonna get criticism and hostility instead.

Now, what about that is so hard to understand?

[NewMarketSean]

Well, first off, I'm not asking O's fans to do anything... except to show up at the ball yard when BOS and the MFY's come to town, instead of selling their tickets at a profit.

Second off, don't confuse this place with all of Oriole fandom. We're just a tiny segment of Oriole fandom.

Third, when you say it's been the same for at least 100 years, that's just another case of you being wrong as usual. Before the internet and shout-radio, the general tone of baseball discussion wasn't anything like this. Modern media has transformed it into being louder, angrier, and meaner than it ever was before. Part of it is because people can say whatever they want and hide, so they spew crap all over the place. I'm not saying everybody was nice before, but I am saying the general tenor was much nicer before. Sure, there might be some loudmouth in the bar who thought he knew everything and everybody else was an idiot, but it wasn't nearly as common as it is these days.

Plus, when people were face to face, you couldn't get away with the crap that people routinely pull on a message board. If it was face to face in a bar, and if somebody came across with the steady diet of negative crap that you spouting here every season before you run off to watch the Ravens, a couple or three guys would not have gotten in a pissing contest with you about it. They might have picked you up and dunked your head in the toilet, but they wouldn't have wasted time arguing with you ;-)

You are one of the most smug and accusatory people on this board. Yet you are saying other people are being too "mean" by bashing the Orioles. It's times like this when I wonder why I took you off ignore.

I thank god for the internet every day...because if it came down to having to deal with you on the internet or in person, I'd much rather do it on the internet. If what you say about your self is true, about getting in people's faces and trying to make them look stupid at baseball games, I wouldn't want to sit next to you either.

[Mackus]

So, when the typical player plays well, posters like him, and when he struggles, posters turn against him.

Criticizing a player for poor performance isn't turning against him.

If you didn't act like people who criticize poor performance were such bad fans, and like you are so much above stooping to the level of talking about when someone isn't performing well, people wouldn't have such problems with you message.

Nobody is commenting on your points about bringing back former players because of the way you talk down to everybody. This thread has gone on for 9 pages, none of which were about your main point, because of your insistence on belittling the people who you think are beneath you.