Roch: Hitting Coach Terry Crowley is coming back

[Frobby]

No, I am not trying to "tar and feather" TC. I'm really not. But the data you cite about Crowley somehow instilling better walk rates are inconclusive, IMO. I am not convinced. I say that for three reasons.

One, it has been my unscientific observation that other teams have more patient at-bats than we do. That this trend has seemed especially apparent versus the Yankees really galls me. So I admit to some irritation/emotion on this topic.

Secondly, TC has stated a preference for aggressive at-bats. For example, in reference to Josh Bell he said: "He's very aggressive, he's a big presence in the batter's box. He's a big guy, and these are all things that I like."

Thirdly, after TC takes over as hitting coach, teams always trend downward in terms of walks, relative to their competition. The stats showing this trend can be found here.

You can single out players, you can isolate stats all you want. But at the end of the day, our RANK versus other teams is what matters, because we play against them, not against past seasons' of individual players.

So I am looking at larger, team trends, and macro effects over years... and I am seeing the "Terry Crowley effect" in action. And I think it's time to go in another direction. If you like his effect on the team, fine. Agree to disagree.

So if the Yankees go pick up Bobby Abreu, and the Orioles go pick up Jay Payton, it is Terry Crowley's fault that Abreu has patient at bats while Payton swings at everything he sees?

Look, we both understand that the fact that the Orioles are impatient at the plate can be (1) the result of the personnel acquired/developed by the team, (2) a product of coaching once the players are on the Orioles, or (3) some combination of the two. To me, the available evidence indicates pretty strongly that it's (1). Even so, I've been saying for 3-4 years now that it was OK with me if Crowley was replaced so that we could see if it would make any difference. But now it seems like that isn't good enough, we have to banish the guy from the organization entirely. I'm sorry, but if that many managers and GM's kept him in his job, and with the number of players who said they have helped him, I think we'd be extremely foolish not to take advantage of the opportunity to keep him in the organization. The idea that he is going to use the new job to run around (in his roving instructor role) teaching young hitters to be impatient, or (in his role as an evaluator) to influence the GM to go acquire a bunch of free swingers, is just nonsensical in my view. He's going to help players with their swings, and give management advice on outside players whose swings can be fixed. He should be very good at those jobs.

Going back to the root problem, the organization needs to put more emphasis on OBP when it acquires players. I could go on and on with the list of impatient hitters the Orioles have acquired over the years -- Chris Singleton, Tony Batista, Deivi Cruz, Corey Patterson, Jay Payton, Cesar Izturis. Even some of the better players like Tejada are very impatient. Compare that with the guys the Yankees acquire.

As I posted in another thread, there are some very patient hitters on the market this offseason. http://www.forum.orioleshangout.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103391&highlight=patience Let's see who the Orioles choose to get.

[LookinUp]

I am very happy that this debate is over, at least in terms of whether he should be our hitting coach next year.

Even if the arguments against Crowley can be mitigated or discounted, I still haven't seen an argument that he's taken the situation he was given and actually improved things in any significant way.

Without such a case FOR him even after a lot of years of him being our coach, the downside of trying someone else is marginal and I'm happy we're going to do so. On that, I think most of us (~80%) agree.

[Bradysburns]

So if the Yankees go pick up Bobby Abreu, and the Orioles go pick up Jay Payton, it is Terry Crowley's fault that Abreu has patient at bats while Payton swings at everything he sees?

Look, we both understand that the fact that the Orioles are impatient at the plate can be (1) the result of the personnel acquired/developed by the team, (2) a product of coaching once the players are on the Orioles, or (3) some combination of the two. To me, the available evidence indicates pretty strongly that it's (1). Even so, I've been saying for 3-4 years now that it was OK with me if Crowley was replaced so that we could see if it would make any difference. But now it seems like that isn't good enough, we have to banish the guy from the organization entirely. I'm sorry, but if that many managers and GM's kept him in his job, and with the number of players who said they have helped him, I think we'd be extremely foolish not to take advantage of the opportunity to keep him in the organization. The idea that he is going to use the new job to run around (in his roving instructor role) teaching young hitters to be impatient, or (in his role as an evaluator) to influence the GM to go acquire a bunch of free swingers, is just nonsensical in my view. He's going to help players with their swings, and give management advice on outside players whose swings can be fixed. He should be very good at those jobs.

Going back to the root problem, the organization needs to put more emphasis on OBP when it acquires players. I could go on and on with the list of impatient hitters the Orioles have acquired over the years -- Chris Singleton, Tony Batista, Deivi Cruz, Corey Patterson, Jay Payton, Cesar Izturis. Even some of the better players like Tejada are very impatient. Compare that with the guys the Yankees acquire.

As I posted in another thread, there are some very patient hitters on the market this offseason. http://www.forum.orioleshangout.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103391&highlight=patience Let's see who the Orioles choose to get.

I definitely agree with pretty much everything you're saying, actually. And it would be great to keep TC in the organization, because he's a Oriole through and through. He obviously brings some real value and perspective, too. My only point was that I wouldn't want him leading the charge when it comes to defining an organizational batting "approach" going forward.

Of that list you provide, I would love to see Konerko manning first next year. But really, any of those guys would be nice at the right price.