How do you get better...

[Dannyboy]

Really? You're going to give me 4 guys over the last 20 years as proof that the O's don't suck at developing players?

Even if you throw in Mussina, the O's record of drafting and developing players to consistently feed the ML club is pathetic.

Throw in Cal back in 1982 , and your looking at 30 yrs. And in those 30 yrs, this tem hasn't produced more than 10 prospects that were major league ready.

[LookinUp]

I get your point, but it is not enough to say 'young legit stud pitcher.' Give us a name. If it is known everyday positional player vs. unknown mystery candidate, I'm going with the known quantity. They are all on the good side of 30, and each can be a part of the next winning team.

The second issue, is teams are not in a hurry to get rid of 'young legit stud pitching', for the very reason you mentioned (if starting a team, most would start through pitching.)

I'm thinking of a Zach Britton level talent. Atlanta has a few in the minors. Zach Wheeler makes sense for both SF and us, I think. The BA midseason top 50 offers a few that make sense. Others could chime in if they have thoughts on particular players.

Markakis for Vizcaino or Delgado +.

Jones for Zach Wheeler +.

You have two young SP destined for our starting rotation AND payroll flexibility. You can replace both Jones and Markakis because they're really not playing much above replacement level. Honestly, Pie + money saved on not signing Jones is probably better than Jones alone. Markakis without the power simply isn't all that valuable.

You have to find the partner, but this replaces two guys who would take up a lot of payroll with two+ guys who would not, and would hopefully be better.

[Stotle]

I'm thinking of a Zach Britton level talent. Atlanta has a few in the minors. Zach Wheeler makes sense for both SF and us, I think. The BA midseason top 50 offers a few that make sense. Others could chime in if they have thoughts on particular players.

Markakis for Vizcaino or Delgado +.

Jones for Zach Wheeler +.

You have two young SP destined for our starting rotation AND payroll flexibility. You can replace both Jones and Markakis because they're really not playing much above replacement level. Honestly, Pie + money saved on not signing Jones is probably better than Jones alone. Markakis without the power simply isn't all that valuable.

You have to find the partner, but this replaces two guys who would take up a lot of payroll with two+ guys who would not, and would hopefully be better.

I'm not sure I see any obvious candidates that would be willing to part with young pitching. Giants aren't trading Wheeler (and wow, would Jones be a liability in THAT center field, huh?). Markakis is too expensive for ATL to move one of their young studs. They are looking at a future rotation, potentially, of Hanson, Jurjens, Tehran, Delgado, Vizcaiano, in addition to the young, cheap back-end arms the have in Beachy, Minor and Gilmartin (once he signs). That is an org deep in pitching and unlikely to move it.

[RavensNTerps]

The argument is, many people want to keep around most of this team...how do you expect this team to get a lot better if all you are doing is keeping the same players?

What a stupid argument.

The obvious answer is that even bad teams have good players. How are we any better without those guys than we are with them? Even if we managed to get a decent starting pitcher or two, which we need, we would just have massive holes at 2B, RF, CF, and SS to fill, then.

You don't get good by trading your best players. You get good by collecitng good players and picking your cards. We don't have that luxury. None of those guys affects our biggest issue, starting pitching, which no one could have seen would be this atrocious this year.

[LookitsPuck]

.....if all you do is extend and keep the same players that have been apart of bad teams?

If we basically go into the offseason with the same team we have now, just with a lot of money spent and more holes, how do those of you who want to keep a lot of the players we have, expect us to get better?

Trade and develop. This isn't a difficult question.

[clapdiddy]

I'm not sure I see any obvious candidates that would be willing to part with young pitching. Giants aren't trading Wheeler (and wow, would Jones be a liability in THAT center field, huh?). Markakis is too expensive for ATL to move one of their young studs. They are looking at a future rotation, potentially, of Hanson, Jurjens, Tehran, Delgado, Vizcaiano, in addition to the young, cheap back-end arms the have in Beachy, Minor and Gilmartin (once he signs). That is an org deep in pitching and unlikely to move it.

Agreed. The Braves realize that the game has shifted to pitching and defense. They aren't going to move pitching for an expensive, or soon to be expensive, player.

I thought Atlanta would be a good fit because Markakis is from the area and hits tremendously there. I think that field is very friendly to a hitter like him.

[LookinUp]

I'm not sure I see any obvious candidates that would be willing to part with young pitching. Giants aren't trading Wheeler (and wow, would Jones be a liability in THAT center field, huh?). Markakis is too expensive for ATL to move one of their young studs. They are looking at a future rotation, potentially, of Hanson, Jurjens, Tehran, Delgado, Vizcaiano, in addition to the young, cheap back-end arms the have in Beachy, Minor and Gilmartin (once he signs). That is an org deep in pitching and unlikely to move it.

You could very well be right. However, that is an organization that's sitting nice in the Wild Card picture this year. They have a need for an outfielder and I'm talking about the #'s 4 and 5 guys on the list above (not Teheran). They do have a motivation to make such a deal, particularly since Markakis isn't THAT expensive, and they have a lot of cheap guys scattered on that team.

I don't know tied to Wheeler the Giants are. I do know that they are defending champions, have great pitching in-house and are also in desperate need of a bat. They may be smarter than I'm giving them credit for (they do a lot of things right), but short term motivations sometimes allow for deals just like this.

Plus, Jones doesn't have to play CF there.

[GoldGlove21]

The question is flawed by stating there would be more holes.

If you extend Hardy, you have quality options at RF, CF, C, SS, and 3rd. It is reasonable to think that Reimold, and Scott could be productive at LF, and DH.

If Roberts can play, he probably will be somewhere around his '06, and '10-'11 levels. No matter what, you have to acquire someone that has the ability to play everyday (hopefully with greater upside vs. Andino) at 2nd (and also at SS, should Hardy again miss major time).

Your pitching (and the team) is still going to be tied to what you receive back production wise from Matusz, Britton, and Arrieta (and to a far lesser extent, Tillman and Bergesen).

You would need to address 1st, and you need to acquire SP help. I obviously like the sound of Fielder, and Darvish; but maybe there other avenues. (A young 1st baseman like Alonso or Belt, and a team of CJ Wilson and Marquis to help stablize the staff?).

Guthrie should be traded now if he can net you Cozart. No problem with moving Uehara, and Johnson as well. Same for Lee, and Guerrero with the understanding that they are only going to bring back so much. If they give you another 5th starter option, or bullpen help that is fine.

The alternative is something like:

Trading Jones for Belt and Wheeler

Trading Guthrie and Hardy for Alonso, Cozart, +

Trading Uehara, Johnson, Lee, Guerrero for ?

You would obviously gain payroll flexibility, and obtain a number of quality players that would be under team control cheaply.

You would still need an ACE, or at-least rotation help. Instead of needing a 1st baseman, you would need to acquire a CF with more upside than Pie. With Cozart now replacing Hardy at SS, you would still need a backup option for Roberts at 2nd. You could more easily trade Scott, with Alonso/Belt/Reimold making up 1st, DH, LF.

I can get behind either path, but I'm not sure the payroll flexibility of the 2nd path necessairly puts you in a better position than the 1st path.

It just is not good enough. Are we trying to field "a" team or a "winning team"? How many aces are going to hit the free agent market in 2012 or 2013? How many legit middle of the order bats? How many All Star position players that are not older than 32 or 33? The Orioles have way too many holes to try to address them all in free agency. I think the Orioles need the following positions to be upgraded moving forward.

SP #1

SP #2

LF (Although I am not against Reimold)

3B (Defensively, Reynolds should move to DH)

2B (It is almost impossible to think Roberts will return to his old ways)

RP #1

RP #2

CP

Backup MI

I think we need an ace, but they are hard to land. What we really need to do is move guys like Scott, Koji, Guthrie, Vlad and Lee. Move Lee and Vlad for a song. We missed the boat on Scott last year IMO and we are now paying $6.4M to a guy who isn't playing. You could got a solid prospect for him and saved $6.4M.

I agree with the point of OP. If we keep status quo, then how do things change? The Orioles are rolling over a good part of their team year to year, but they are replacing the missing parts with washed up and expensive personnel. It just doesn't make any sense. Be smart with your money and invest it in MLB stock (prospects).

[Stotle]

Agreed. The Braves realize that the game has shifted to pitching and defense. They aren't going to move pitching for an expensive, or soon to be expensive, player.

I thought Atlanta would be a good fit because Markakis is from the area and hits tremendously there. I think that field is very friendly to a hitter like him.

Baltimore was in a position to get a package headlined by Hanson in exchange for Nick (pre-extension). I was open to that at the time (even though everyone, including myself) was convinced Nick was going to be one of the better outfielders in the game. I thought the opportunity to get Hanson and a couple other major pieces, on the heels of adding pieces from the Bedard deal and drafting Arrieta/Wieters was unique, and something Baltimore should consider (though it would have required essentially punting to 2012, which in hindsight would have been a fine trade-off.

[Stotle]

You could very well be right. However, that is an organization that's sitting nice in the Wild Card picture this year. They have a need for an outfielder and I'm talking about the #'s 4 and 5 guys on the list above (not Teheran). They do have a motivation to make such a deal, particularly since Markakis isn't THAT expensive, and they have a lot of cheap guys scattered on that team.

I don't know tied to Wheeler the Giants are. I do know that they are defending champions, have great pitching in-house and are also in desperate need of a bat. They may be smarter than I'm giving them credit for (they do a lot of things right), but short term motivations sometimes allow for deals just like this.

Plus, Jones doesn't have to play CF there.

Markakis is semi-cheap for one more year, than $15 million for the next two, right? I just don't see Atlanta being interested at all at this point. That ship has sailed. I understand BAL not pursuing it, but in hindsight that would have been the right move.

The Giants are heavily invested in Wheeler. If they were to move him, it would be for a sure thing. Maybe they view Jones as a sure thing, who knows. I don't think they make the deal if they too think he is not able to play CF in San Fran.

[vab]

I think people are a little focused on how to get better in this thread. If I'm building a team, first I start with pitching. We need it. Now, ask yourself this question:

Would you rather have Jones than a young legit stud pitcher?

Would you rather have Markakis than a young legit stud pitcher?

Would you rather have Hardy than a young legit stud pitcher?

Would you rather have Reynolds than a young legit stud pitcher?

If I'm the O's, and I'm thinking about what I need moving forward, I focus on pitching and moving guys who are potentially overvalued. That means Jones and Markakis first, and Hardy second (because of injury). I don't focus on moving them for bats. I focus on getting my pitching straight.

You also, of course, see what you can get for Guthrie. I like guys like Alonso and Belt, but if some team is willing to give me a comparably valued young starter, I'm taking that deal. If not, go get your Alonso.

Assuming we keep him, I definitely look to move Reynolds to 1B, with an eventual move to DH. I upgrade 3B on defense first.

I keep Scott, but only because his value is nil. Bring him back and hope he re-establishes himself by next trade deadline. If so, trade him, or maybe we'd be lucky to fall into a Type B situation.

Do what you want with the relievers.

My point is that we should get the pitching help we desperately need first. If we're open to moving one or more of Hardy/Jones/Markakis for pitching, we could solidify our staff moving forward (IMO). Beyond that, focus on defense first and supplement with bats where they're available.

Great sentiment but it's not going to happen. Those guys aren't highly-valued enough that you can get a legit, young stud pitcher for any of them. That's the hottest commodity in the game and you're going to have to move a Prince Fielder, Albert Pujols, Adrian Gonzalez level guy to get that. Matt Wieters probably would come the closest on this roster because he's young and still has a good bit of upside at a position that's so hard to fill but he probably doesn't get it done either.

[GoldGlove21]

You could very well be right. However, that is an organization that's sitting nice in the Wild Card picture this year. They have a need for an outfielder and I'm talking about the #'s 4 and 5 guys on the list above (not Teheran). They do have a motivation to make such a deal, particularly since Markakis isn't THAT expensive, and they have a lot of cheap guys scattered on that team.

I don't know tied to Wheeler the Giants are. I do know that they are defending champions, have great pitching in-house and are also in desperate need of a bat. They may be smarter than I'm giving them credit for (they do a lot of things right), but short term motivations sometimes allow for deals just like this.

Plus, Jones doesn't have to play CF there.

I think the Braves could afford Markakis, but I do not think they are giving up a top pitching prospect for him. Even if they do, you do not trade Markakis for a single prospect IMO. There is just no room for error there. If your pick gets hurt or falters then you just gave Markakis away and that doesn't make sense. I am still going to call the Braves however. I am going to call the Padres regarding Adam Jones. I like both these guys, but we are losing with them. I don't think there is any chance we trade either guy however. If you are going to trade Wieters, Jones or Markakis then just blow the whole thing up and start over. Unfortunately for the O's, young players are now the games greatest currency. Great players seldom hit the open market because other teams move their prospects to get them. Teams like the Yankees can buy players and then strike with their minor league system as needed.

One day the Orioles will figure out the right way to do things, but today or even this offseason isn't going to be when it happens.

[LookinUp]

Markakis is semi-cheap for one more year, than $15 million for the next two, right? I just don't see Atlanta being interested at all at this point. That ship has sailed. I understand BAL not pursuing it, but in hindsight that would have been the right move.

The Giants are heavily invested in Wheeler. If they were to move him, it would be for a sure thing. Maybe they view Jones as a sure thing, who knows. I don't think they make the deal if they too think he is not able to play CF in San Fran.

12, 15, 15, 17.5 club option, actually.

More expensive than I expected. (14m per for 3 years)

[NattieO'sHon]

.....if all you do is extend and keep the same players that have been apart of bad teams?

If we basically go into the offseason with the same team we have now, just with a lot of money spent and more holes, how do those of you who want to keep a lot of the players we have, expect us to get better?

You act as if trading players is that easy. The only players worth a damn are most likely deemed untouchable by Orioles. As for position players, I would not trade Reynolds, Hardy(Unless he does not sign contract), Wieters, Nick, Jones. The rest would be available but nobody going to trade for them. As for pitchers, I would keep all the starters including Guthrie since we cannot field a full rotation right now and I would attempt to trade anyone in the bullpen except for JJ. Again, I do not believe any team would offer anything worth a damn for the rest of the team. So it is easy for all of us to throw out these trade ideas but based on my limited knowledge the ability to execute a trade is difficult especially given the reluctance by most teams to trade young talent.

While I agree with you that we need to make major changes in the scouting and development area I am not in agreement that we should dump this team.

[Sports Guy]

You act as if trading players is that easy. The only players worth a damn are most likely deemed untouchable by Orioles. As for position players' date=' I would not trade Reynolds, Hardy(Unless he does not sign contract), Wieters, Nick, Jones. The rest would be available but nobody going to trade for them. As for pitchers, I would keep all the starters including Guthrie since we cannot field a full rotation right now and I would attempt to trade anyone in the bullpen except for JJ. Again, I do not believe any team would offer anything worth a damn for the rest of the team. So it is easy for all of us to throw out these trade ideas but based on my limited knowledge the ability to execute a trade is difficult especially given the reluctance by most teams to trade young talent.

While I agree with you that we need to make major changes in the scouting and development area I am not in agreement that we should dump this team.[/quote']Thus the problem.

You aren't looking big picture.

The Orioles payroll is close to 90 million this year and they have publicly said that is much higher than they wanted to go. If you are paying 40 million of that payroll to JJ hardy, Nick, Jones and BRob, how do you really expect to change this team around? Too much money is tied in good but not great talent.

On top of that, many want to keep guys like Johnson, Koji, Guthrie, etc...All of those guys will be expensive and we haven't even talked about money to Gregg and when the deferred Vlad money gets paid.

We are going to have a ton of money tied up in 10 or less players and have to fill out the rest of the team with 20-30 million...How do you expect them to do that? Oh and btw, we have zero depth in the minor leagues and basically have no help coming for at least 2 years, if ever.