How do you get better...

[Sports Guy]

.....if all you do is extend and keep the same players that have been apart of bad teams?

If we basically go into the offseason with the same team we have now, just with a lot of money spent and more holes, how do those of you who want to keep a lot of the players we have, expect us to get better?

[NewMarketSean]

.....if all you do is extend and keep the same players that have been apart of bad teams?

If we basically go into the offseason with the same team we have now, just with a lot of money spent and more holes, how do those of you who want to keep a lot of the players we have, expect us to get better?

Agree, which is why they need to put everyone on the table at the deadline and this offseason.

[Frobby]

I am not sure I understand the argument that you are trying to make. Off the top of my head, these are the only players who have been here more than 3 years:

BRob

Markakis

Jones

Scott

Guthrie

Are these five guys responsible for the Orioles being a losing team?

It seems to me that the Orioles have plenty of turnover from one year to the next.

[tennOsfan]

We have to develop more talent. It's as simple as that. Extensions and free agents are find and dandy, but we have to make more elite players.

Look at the Braves' roster and analyze how many of their players are home-grown. They can replenish all the time. We aren't even in the same ballpark as teams like that.

[Dipper9]

I am not sure I understand the argument that you are trying to make. Off the top of my head, these are the only players who have been here more than 3 years:

BRob

Markakis

Jones

Scott

Guthrie

Are these five guys responsible for the Orioles being a losing team?

It seems to me that the Orioles have plenty of turnover from one year to the next.

I agree. Being happy that we are trying to extend Hardy does not equal being happy with status quo. I am all for trading Guts, Scott, Pie, Vlad, Lee, Koji, Gregg, Gonzo, etc. But Hardy could be around for winning years, IF we ever get to that point again in my lifetime. You can't get rid of everry good player we have every couple years or we'll never get out of this funk.

[Sports Guy]

I am not sure I understand the argument that you are trying to make. Off the top of my head, these are the only players who have been here more than 3 years:

BRob

Markakis

Jones

Scott

Guthrie

Are these five guys responsible for the Orioles being a losing team?

It seems to me that the Orioles have plenty of turnover from one year to the next.

The argument is, many people want to keep around most of this team...how do you expect this team to get a lot better if all you are doing is keeping the same players?

[Sports Guy]

]The question is flawed by stating there would be more holes.

After this season, holes open back up at first and DH...You also potentially lose some BP pitchers and bench...Not to mention, LF is still a hole. So yes, holes open up around the players you are already keeping.

If you extend Hardy, you have quality options at RF, CF, C, SS, and 3rd. It is reasonable to think that Reimold, and Scott could be productive at LF, and DH.

If Roberts can play, he probably will be somewhere around his '06, and '10-'11 levels. No matter what, you have to acquire someone that has the ability to play everyday (hopefully with greater upside vs. Andino) at 2nd (and also at SS, should Hardy again miss major time).

Your pitching (and the team) is still going to be tied to what you receive back production wise from Matusz, Britton, and Arrieta (and to a far lesser extent, Tillman and Bergesen).

You would need to address 1st, and you need to acquire SP help. I obviously like the sound of Fielder, and Darvish; but maybe there other avenues. (A young 1st baseman like Alonso or Belt, and a team of CJ Wilson and Marquis to help stablize the staff?).

Guthrie should be traded now if he can net you Cozart. No problem with moving Uehara, and Johnson as well. Same for Lee, and Guerrero with the understanding that they are only going to bring back so much. If they give you another 5th starter option, or bullpen help that is fine.

The alternative is something like:

Trading Jones for Belt and Wheeler

Trading Guthrie and Hardy for Alonso, Cozart, +

Trading Uehara, Johnson, Lee, Guerrero for ?

You would obviously gain payroll flexibility, and obtain a number of quality players that would be under team control cheaply.

You would still need an ACE, or at-least rotation help. Instead of needing a 1st baseman, you would need to acquire a CF with more upside than Pie. With Cozart now replacing Hardy at SS, you would still need a backup option for Roberts at 2nd. You could more easily trade Scott, with Alonso/Belt/Reimold making up 1st, DH, LF.

I can get behind either path, but I'm not sure the payroll flexibility of the 2nd path necessairly puts you in a better position than the 1st path

A few points:

1) Cozart isn't nearly enough to justify trading Guthrie.

2) We should not enter next year, as of right now, with any thought of Reimold being a key, productive player.

3) Scott would need to come back at a fraction of the cost or you have to non tender him, especially if he has surgery.

4) Darvish and Fielder are pipe dreams, especially Darvish.

As I said before, you are going to be paying a ton of money(and a huge % of the payroll) for 4-7 players and none of those players are elite guys for their positions except Hardy..when he is healthy.

You can't put a lot around them because your payroll can only go so high and you will not be able to add all that much money. So, you have yet another team where you are doing nothing more than hoping that all of the young players take a huge step forward...Yet again, putting the entire season on the shoulders of 2-3 pitchers...which is poor.

[TradeAngelos]

.....if all you do is extend and keep the same players that have been apart of bad teams?

If we basically go into the offseason with the same team we have now, just with a lot of money spent and more holes, how do those of you who want to keep a lot of the players we have, expect us to get better?

We understand if it was up to you every single player would be traded, and we would be back to square one with a hope of competing in 2018.

We got it. Really we do.

Just get rid of them all. They are all losers anyway.

[JDubs]

Who's trying to get better?

:wedge:

[Sports Guy]

1) Yeah, I agree... I wrote the other day Cozart + for Guthrie, didn't do that here. I'm fine with Cozart being the main piece though.

Not me...He isn't good enough to be a the main piece. I am a big fan of his and his defense will play but his bat is a question mark...A 600 OPS, good fielder isn't enough to trade Guthrie.

2) If you went into '12 with Reimold expected to start in LF for you, it would be because he had just spent the

Even if that happens, I still wouldn't count on him. I may be inclined to play him over signing Willingham but other than that, I still wouldn't hand him a spot, especially not in LF where he is defensively challenged.

4) Darvish is probably a pipe dream. Fielder is not. In the plan you have basically been advocated, you are still hoping for them to go after Darvish.

Fielder is a pipe dream because no chance the Orioles give him the money it will take to get him here. I do hope we go after Darvish but there is no way the Orioles are payiong 30+ million just to talk contract with him. It really is laughable for any of us to actually believe PA and AM will do that

However, if they made the trades of Jones for Belt, Wheeler and Hardy/Guthrie for Alonso, and Cozart.... the new core you would be going with is Markakis, Wieters, Reynolds, Belt, Alonso, Cozart, Matusz, Britton, and Arrieta. Again, you would need to upgrade at CF, and the front of the rotation. The payroll flexibility will have improved, and if that allows you to invest further into the system - that would be great. It certainly might provide a bit of a longer window.

Is the team any better over '12, and '13 though? How are you not putting the entire season on the shoulders of a couple of pitchers in this path either?

The answer to are they better is unknown because you don't know what the young players will do. But they are clearly in better shape, in many ways, by doing that.

[TXOriole]

Thsimple answer to the original questions is, You Dont. But when your organization refuses to spend money on high priced FA's...assuming you can find one that would pla here to begin with...and doesnt focus on the proper development of young talent, you really dont have a choice. Baltimore will remain a place where m inor league talent gets a chance to play major league ball, veterans get a chance to continue their careers and young players with potential are able to generate interest in the FA market to have better careers with better teams. Until the organization changes...nothing in Baltimore will.

[vab]

I think what a lot of people don't understand is that, when you're this bad, trades probably aren't really going to get you anywhere. Trades are for filling a hole here or there, not this many holes. Ideally you trade from depth at one position to strengthen a spot where you're thin. This club has no real depth anywhere so they can make a bunch of trades and shuffle a lot of bodies but when it's all said and done they're probably going to have at least as many holes as they do now. Maybe in different spots but just as many. When you're talking about Vlad, Lee, Gonzalez or anybody else who is not signed/under control for next year, sure get whatever you can at the deadline. For the rest I would keep everybody and try to create depth at a couple of spots through free agency then make deals from that depth. That is just short-term stuff though to get back to some level of respectability. There's no getting around improving the drafting and development of talent to really turn this thing around.

[TradeAngelos]

Thsimple answer to the original questions is, You Dont. But when your organization refuses to spend money on high priced FA's...assuming you can find one that would pla here to begin with...and doesnt focus on the proper development of young talent, you really dont have a choice. Baltimore will remain a place where m inor league talent gets a chance to play major league ball, veterans get a chance to continue their careers and young players with potential are able to generate interest in the FA market to have better careers with better teams. Until the organization changes...nothing in Baltimore will.

What a great post, especially the bolded part.

Dead freaking on.

[El Gordo]

The question is flawed by stating there would be more holes.

If you extend Hardy, you have quality options at RF, CF, C, SS, and 3rd. It is reasonable to think that Reimold, and Scott could be productive at LF, and DH.

If Roberts can play, he probably will be somewhere around his '06, and '10-'11 levels. No matter what, you have to acquire someone that has the ability to play everyday (hopefully with greater upside vs. Andino) at 2nd (and also at SS, should Hardy again miss major time).

Your pitching (and the team) is still going to be tied to what you receive back production wise from Matusz, Britton, and Arrieta (and to a far lesser extent, Tillman and Bergesen).

You would need to address 1st, and you need to acquire SP help. I obviously like the sound of Fielder, and Darvish; but maybe there other avenues. (A young 1st baseman like Alonso or Belt, and a team of CJ Wilson and Marquis to help stablize the staff?).

Guthrie should be traded now if he can net you Cozart. No problem with moving Uehara, and Johnson as well. Same for Lee, and Guerrero with the understanding that they are only going to bring back so much. If they give you another 5th starter option, or bullpen help that is fine.

The alternative is something like:

Trading Jones for Belt and Wheeler

Trading Guthrie and Hardy for Alonso, Cozart, +

Trading Uehara, Johnson, Lee, Guerrero for ?

You would obviously gain payroll flexibility, and obtain a number of quality players that would be under team control cheaply.

You would still need an ACE, or at-least rotation help. Instead of needing a 1st baseman, you would need to acquire a CF with more upside than Pie. With Cozart now replacing Hardy at SS, you would still need a backup option for Roberts at 2nd. You could more easily trade Scott, with Alonso/Belt/Reimold making up 1st, DH, LF.

I can get behind either path, but I'm not sure the payroll flexibility of the 2nd path necessairly puts you in a better position than the 1st path.

If you extend Hardy why do you need Cozart. You can pick up a number of better than Andino 2B/SS insurance options in FA, and Guthrie alone would get you Alonso. SF won't trade either Wheeler or Belt for anyone, IMO, certainly not Jones.

[Jagwar]

You get better by running a farm system that provides depth and replaces players with major league quality prospects.

Unfortunately, the Os have sucked at this for (probably) 2 decades.