Is it hypocritical to turn on MacPhail now?

[eddie83]

No. Signing Vlad is a statement about the organization.

Also, if you think Vlad is the answer to some shortcoming created by there being no better option in-house than Reimold/Pie, I think THAT is a statement about the organization and how it's generally being put together.

They signed him as a luxury item, they admitted as much when they were going after him.

If I thought the money they invested on him would impact later signings then it would hurt us, it didn't.

We have 5 players ages 25-28 in the lineup, 2 of which were brought in this past offseason. Vlad is one player, we don't have alot of over 30 guys like the previous regime did.

Baltimore is a market where coming off of 13 seasons of losing has enough money and fan support to justify the signing, it was worth the risk. 3 million is deferred. I don't think it is some signing that indicates some overall way of doing business.

If you want to rip the signing that is fair game, I just don't think it indicated some deeper issue.

[Stotle]

They signed him as a luxury item, they admitted as much when they were going after him.

If I thought the money they invested on him would impact later signings then it would hurt us, it didn't.

We have 5 players ages 25-28 in the lineup, 2 of which were brought in this past offseason. Vlad is one player, we don't have alot of over 30 guys like the previous regime did.

Baltimore is a market where coming off of 13 seasons of losing has enough money and fan support to justify the signing, it was worth the risk. 3 million is deferred. I don't think it is some signing that indicates some overall way of doing business.

If you want to rip the signing that is fair game, I just don't think it indicated some deeper issue.

Questionable use of available liquidity is probably the most important issue surrounding this organization. Put into context, they spent almost a draft class's worth of money on a year of Vlad. The process that leads to these spending decisions is perhaps the most glaring shortcoming of this org, and Vlad's signing was a prime example of the issues with how the Orioles "do business."

[The Maestro]

Questionable use of available liquidity is probably the most important issue surrounding this organization. Put into context, they spent almost a draft class's worth of money on a year of Vlad. The process that leads to these spending decisions is perhaps the most glaring shortcoming of this org, and Vlad's signing was a prime example of the issues with how the Orioles "do business."

Agreed, but I'm not sure people the the O's front office would be inclined to put that money to better use(more minor league instructors, scouting, overslots, or international FA). Business as usual I guess.

[JTrea81]

Agreed, but I'm not sure people the the O's front office would be inclined to put that money to better use(more minor league instructors, scouting, overslots, or international FA). Business as usual I guess.

Bingo, it was spend the money on Vlad, or likely not at all.

[Stotle]

Agreed, but I'm not sure people the the O's front office would be inclined to put that money to better use(more minor league instructors, scouting, overslots, or international FA). Business as usual I guess.

Bingo, it was spend the money on Vlad, or likely not at all.

Not at all would have been better if for no other reason than it adds available liquidity in case 1) Baltimore wanted to add salary later in the season by acquiring a talent through trade, or 2) Baltimore wants to spend money next off-season and has to do so while seeing season ticket sales drop (a likelihood).

These aren't vacation hours that disappear after Dec. 31st. Money saved is money you can spend later. Payroll room is important, and yes the fact that it is a one year deal makes the move acceptable from that standpoint. But if you don't waste the money on Vlad, you can spend it on something better you really need, whether that's through FA the following year or by keeping payroll open to go out and get someone like Pence.

[The Maestro]

Not at all would have been better if for no other reason than it adds available liquidity in case 1) Baltimore wanted to add salary later in the season by acquiring a talent through trade, or 2) Baltimore wants to spend money next off-season and has to do so while seeing season ticket sales drop (a likelihood).

These aren't vacation hours that disappear after Dec. 31st. Money saved is money you can spend later. Payroll room is important, and yes the fact that it is a one year deal makes the move acceptable from that standpoint. But if you don't waste the money on Vlad, you can spend it on something better you really need, whether that's through FA the following year or by keeping payroll open to go out and get someone like Pence.

Stotle, are you saying they don't have an extra $160MM laying around under the seat cushion for Prince this offseason? :wedge:

[Stotle]

Stotle, are you saying they don't have an extra $160MM laying around under the seat cushion for Prince this offseason? :wedge:

Haha. Well, as funny as it sounds, Baltimore could have a chunk of that lying around had they not wasted money on 1) Vlad, 2) Gregg, 3) MGon, 4) Atkins, and 5) Roberts (I know this last one will rile some).

[The Maestro]

Haha. Well, as funny as it sounds, Baltimore could have a chunk of that lying around had they not wasted money on 1) Vlad, 2) Gregg, 3) MGon, 4) Atkins, and 5) Roberts (I know this last one will rile some).

Well, the truth has to be told even if it riles some folks up. It wasnt a good deal then, and we all know what it looks like now. I'm guessing here, but Roberts probably would have been a Type A had we let him walk,yes?

[Stotle]

Well, the truth has to be told even if it riles some folks up. It wasnt a good deal then, and we all know what it looks like now. I'm guessing here, but Roberts probably would have been a Type A had we let him walk,yes?

I believe so, yes.

[The Maestro]

I believe so, yes.

Well it all makes sense then.

[JTrea81]

Haha. Well, as funny as it sounds, Baltimore could have a chunk of that lying around had they not wasted money on 1) Vlad, 2) Gregg, 3) MGon, 4) Atkins, and 5) Roberts (I know this last one will rile some).

Might as well add Markakis to that list as he'd be a free agent after this season if we hadn't extended him.

[Stotle]

Might as well add Markakis to that list as he'd be a free agent after this season if we hadn't extended him

I don't think so. Markakis was a completely reasonable extension at the time. But in hindsight, sure. I guess if we KNEW Baltimore was going to be hapless for the duration of his contract, they would have been better off not spending the money.

I actually pointed out that rather than extending him at the time it would have made sense to trade him to ATL, who was looking for upgrades in the outfield and was at the time talking about potentially moving Tommy Hanson and more.

[SrMeowMeow]

They signed him as a luxury item, they admitted as much when they were going after him.

If I thought the money they invested on him would impact later signings then it would hurt us, it didn't.

We have 5 players ages 25-28 in the lineup, 2 of which were brought in this past offseason. Vlad is one player, we don't have alot of over 30 guys like the previous regime did.

Baltimore is a market where coming off of 13 seasons of losing has enough money and fan support to justify the signing, it was worth the risk. 3 million is deferred. I don't think it is some signing that indicates some overall way of doing business.

If you want to rip the signing that is fair game, I just don't think it indicated some deeper issue.

I agree with all of this, even though I wouldn't have signed Vlad in MacPhail's shoes.

[DrungoHazewood]

Wit the exception of Ortiz and Butler (maybe Michael Young, though he can still play in the infield), "DH" isn't really a position that anyone worth while plays. It's an afterthought generally filled by someone too old or defensively worhtless to be any player of consequence. It doesn't require specific targeting in the off-season, and in the Orioles case they already had someone to handle this in Luke Scott.

Re: The $3 million, the fact that BAL paid that premium is bad and is in addition to the decision itself (signing Vlad) being a poor one, not the cause of the decision itself being a poor one.

I think that not treating the DH role as a regular position is one of the reasons that the DH is now not the highest-performing offensive role in the AL, despite the lack of any defensive requirements. Teams that plan out a regular DH (Vlad notwithstanding) tend to have better DH production than teams that give the role to a committee of players, or to whomever isn't quite up to playing the field this year.

This is an obvious inefficiency in baseball. A position where you have no defensive requirements should be the best-hitting position in baseball, but it's not, and every year there are teams that get sub-.700 OPSes out of their DHs. Think about it... in a logical world Vlad would be playing in the Atlantic League, Reynolds would be DHing, and the O's would have a cheap, defense-first third baseman with a .680 OPS and they'd be better off! They'd win more games!

Not at all would have been better if for no other reason than it adds available liquidity in case 1) Baltimore wanted to add salary later in the season by acquiring a talent through trade, or 2) Baltimore wants to spend money next off-season and has to do so while seeing season ticket sales drop (a likelihood).

These aren't vacation hours that disappear after Dec. 31st. Money saved is money you can spend later. Payroll room is important, and yes the fact that it is a one year deal makes the move acceptable from that standpoint. But if you don't waste the money on Vlad, you can spend it on something better you really need, whether that's through FA the following year or by keeping payroll open to go out and get someone like Pence.

That sounds nice, but I don't believe it for a minute. The Orioles, and I'd doubt most teams, have an Al Gore Social Security Lockbox where they put all the cash they managed to not spend on bad free agents. They don't pull out the key 2-3 years down the road and get to spend all of that (plus interest!) on something really valuable. That money has gone back into operations and facilities and disbursements to shareholders and that pack of Juicy Fruit that Stockstill really had to have while he was waiting in the checkout line at Farm Fresh. Everything I've seen from observing this franchise over the years indicates that if they don't spend it this year, it's gone. Potential future transactions are judged on whether they're likely to pay for themselves, that's it.

[Tony-OH]

That sounds nice, but I don't believe it for a minute. The Orioles, and I'd doubt most teams, have an Al Gore Social Security Lockbox where they put all the cash they managed to not spend on bad free agents. They don't pull out the key 2-3 years down the road and get to spend all of that (plus interest!) on something really valuable. That money has gone back into operations and facilities and disbursements to shareholders and that pack of Juicy Fruit that Stockstill really had to have while he was waiting in the checkout line at Farm Fresh. Everything I've seen from observing this franchise over the years indicates that if they don't spend it this year, it's gone. Potential future transactions are judged on whether they're likely to pay for themselves, that's it.

I never wanted to believe it, but I'm not sure truer words were written on this board. Stotle's comments make perfect sense, if this was an organization that was able to plan out years in advance. It's hard to have a true five-year plan when you are not given a five-year budget. The Orioles don't operate in that capacity and its one of the reasons they are working on their 14th straight losing season.