Yoennis Cespedes?

[Pickles]

But you are talking about guys who were very young. Cespedes is 26 and has established himself. He is different than an 18 y/o kid.

And Iglesias only has to be worth around 2.5 WAR to justify the contract they gave him. His defense alone may make him worth that quickly.

I do agree with you that I would rather see the quantity over quality thing but sometimes, I would like to see them make a splash with a big ticket Int'l player...You wouldn't want Sano right now?

Established himself in what though? The Cuban League? That isn't the Japanese League. That's probably AA ball- at best, with a bunch of guys who probably wouldn't be drafted in the States mixed in.

I think it's a little funny that a guy who raged against the dying light of Luis Hernandez thinks that Iglesias would be an adequate starting SS in the MLs. He had a obp of like .280 in AAA last year. He better be Ozzie Smith w the gloze to justify that and I have a feeling he isn't.

And sure, I'd love to have Sano. But I'd probably rather have Schoop at this point; and I know for a fact I'd rather have three Schoops. That's my whole point.

[JTrea81]

I love all this talk about Cespedes, but I haven't seen the Orioles linked to him once.

My guess is he's snatched up before Duquette can put the people in place to scout him.

[shylock]

I love all this talk about Cespedes, but I haven't seen the Orioles linked to him once.

My guess is he's snatched up before Duquette can put the people in place to scout him.

It's time to percolate.

[LookinUp]

I love all this talk about Cespedes, but I haven't seen the Orioles linked to him once.

My guess is he's snatched up before Duquette can put the people in place to scout him.

The irony is thick.

[allstar1579]

Good Lord, then I'd hate to see the examples where they DIDN'T work out.

Dick-K got paid 100 mil and has pitched ~ 600 innings with a 108 ERA+. That's working out? That's effecient? I don't think so.

Chapman had a decent ERA last year, decent, but he also pitched a grand total of 50 innings and walked over 40 guys. And for the low price of almost 4 million. That's working out? I don't think so. If the O's signed a RP on the FA market and got those results for that kind of money they'd be crucified.

I hope Iglesias is Bos starting SS next year. He put up a ~550 OPS in AAA last year. He's not a ML starting SS- not w that bat. That's not working out either.

Iona's working out? He recieved a record bonus and he's pitched 9 total innings in his career. How can you justify that? And yes, it's due to injury, but the inherent risk of these guys is EXACTLY WHY you don't throw huge money their way.

You think these examples hurt my case? Come now, look at it honestly. They don't. They are my case in point. I mean, you're trying to justify 10 million dollars to a SS who can't get his OPS over 600 in AAA; a record bonus for a guy who's pitched all of 9 innings; 100 million for a fairly average pitcher w injury problems; and 30 million for a reliever w a 8 BB rate.

Look at it objectively. These guys haven't been worth the money. And yes, there's a Sano here and there, but he hasn't done anything above A ball yet either so let's not act as if he's money in the bank just yet, but most of them don't earn anywhere near the kind of money they get at the top of the international FA market. That's almost indisputable fact.

You're nitpicking and not even using all the facts to make your assessments though. Dice K did not get paid 100m, 50m of his money was a posting fee. That's something that comes with Japaneese pitchers you can't get around, it's not part of his compensation, it's the process MLB has. Pre-injury, as I pointed out, you can't blame guys for getting injured, he was a 3.2 and a 5.1 WAR pitcher. His salary was $14.7m and he was worth $30.7m. Yeah, he was worth it.

Chapman is still a prospect, you can't think of these guys as being like signing CJ Wilson, you have to think of them as signing Dylan Bundy. You have to give them a nice sized salary because that's how the system is designed, but in his 60 IP he's been worth $5.2m so far, you pay that money because you know as he gets better and plays more he will be worth MUCH more than you pay. This year you'll probably see him be worth double what he costs, and increasing as he gets older. I don't hear you complaining that Strasburg hasn't earned his $15.1m. That's a VERY similar situation, but since there are no real rules in the IFA structure it's the wild wild west, both driving up price and allowing any team who wants to pay to jump in and sign them, you don't have to have a high draft pick to do it.

Iglesias' bat is very soft, but he's already Vizquel level defensively. Back in the early 90's before the juiced-era teams would put a premium on that kinda middle infield defense. In the NL plenty of guys have jobs in the #8 hole because they play great D. He's also extremely young and still growing. If you want to be able to acquire talent without giving anything up (draft pick, trade) you have to pay for it, that's how the system works.It's better to risk a player not panning out than to tread water for 3 years winning 70 games each season and spending the same amount of money on a RP.

Again, you can't fault injury for any of these players. Injuries happen, so you need to throw that out of your argument. Are you going to complain that Wainwright isn't worth his $10m because he missed last season? Once Ynoa got here and was really evaluated, he was up in that Hernandez/Pineda level player. It's a shame he got hurt, but you sound like Peter Angelos saying oh we can't risk signing this guy because what if he gets hurt and doesn't earn his salary?

Yes, I think it's an extremely weak case to try to say that these guys aren't worth money because they got injured or because they are 23 years old under 60 IP and are not all-stars yet. You seem to have a misconstrued way of thinking on how these things work. They are not established ML players, they are still prospects. Some more solid than others.

Yes there are players that don't earn the money they get on sheer playing ability, but there are tons of Rule 4 players that never earn their bonuses either, does that mean you aren't going to draft anymore? Staying completely out of this area just puts us even more behind other teams. And keep in mind that i did agree it's better to spend $3m 10 times at 300k than to one guy, BUT I'm saying that it's not completely smart to stay away from the more expensive guys out of fear either.

[Sports Guy]

Established himself in what though? The Cuban League? That isn't the Japanese League. That's probably AA ball- at best, with a bunch of guys who probably wouldn't be drafted in the States mixed in.

I think it's a little funny that a guy who raged against the dying light of Luis Hernandez thinks that Iglesias would be an adequate starting SS in the MLs. He had a obp of like .280 in AAA last year. He better be Ozzie Smith w the gloze to justify that and I have a feeling he isn't.

And sure, I'd love to have Sano. But I'd probably rather have Schoop at this point; and I know for a fact I'd rather have three Schoops. That's my whole point.

I am not saying Iglesias is some great player. I am saying that for 10M, he doesn't have to have much of a career to justify the signing. BTW, a team with a loaded lineup like Boston could afford to have one poor bat in the lineup if they are providing GG caliber defense.

And my point is that you should be able to have 3 Schoops AND 1 Sano.

I have said it constantly...The team should have an amateur budget(ie foreign and domestic talent) of 15-20M each year.

Internationally, if they just spent 2M more a year, I think we would all be happy. Do you know how much 2 million could buy you? Maybe you get one Sano or maybe you can get 20 Schoops.

That's what I want to see.

In theory, I agree with you that spending monster money on one guy isn't a great way of doing things...but sometimes, it is ok to do that and if we upped the amateur budget, as we should, then it wouldn't be an issue.

[Sports Guy]

I love all this talk about Cespedes, but I haven't seen the Orioles linked to him once.

My guess is he's snatched up before Duquette can put the people in place to scout him.

Well, the Orioles have basically said they aren't signing Fielder or Wilson, yet it doesn't stop you from talking about them.

[allstar1579]

Established himself in what though? The Cuban League? That isn't the Japanese League. That's probably AA ball- at best, with a bunch of guys who probably wouldn't be drafted in the States mixed in.

I think it's a little funny that a guy who raged against the dying light of Luis Hernandez thinks that Iglesias would be an adequate starting SS in the MLs. He had a obp of like .280 in AAA last year. He better be Ozzie Smith w the gloze to justify that and I have a feeling he isn't.

And sure, I'd love to have Sano. But I'd probably rather have Schoop at this point; and I know for a fact I'd rather have three Schoops. That's my whole point.

The Cuban league kind of like Japan, with ML talent but also A ball players mixed in, but it is deeper than Japaneese leagues are, so it's closer to AAA/AAAA where Japan is probably closer to AA.

He pretty much is Ozzie Smith with the glove actually.

And I never disagreed with you on the last part, but my point is you could have 3 Schoops AND Sano.

[clapdiddy]

Well, the Orioles have basically said they aren't signing Fielder or Wilson, yet it doesn't stop you from talking about them.

This will without a doubt go down as the quote of the day!

[Lucky Jim]

You're nitpicking and not even using all the facts to make your assessments though. Dice K did not get paid 100m, 50m of his money was a posting fee. That's something that comes with Japaneese pitchers you can't get around, it's not part of his compensation, it's the process MLB has. Pre-injury, as I pointed out, you can't blame guys for getting injured, he was a 3.2 and a 5.1 WAR pitcher. His salary was $14.7m and he was worth $30.7m. Yeah, he was worth it.

Chapman is still a prospect, you can't think of these guys as being like signing CJ Wilson, you have to think of them as signing Dylan Bundy. You have to give them a nice sized salary because that's how the system is designed, but in his 60 IP he's been worth $5.2m so far, you pay that money because you know as he gets better and plays more he will be worth MUCH more than you pay. This year you'll probably see him be worth double what he costs, and increasing as he gets older. I don't hear you complaining that Strasburg hasn't earned his $15.1m. That's a VERY similar situation, but since there are no real rules in the IFA structure it's the wild wild west, both driving up price and allowing any team who wants to pay to jump in and sign them, you don't have to have a high draft pick to do it.

Iglesias' bat is very soft, but he's already Vizquel level defensively. Back in the early 90's before the juiced-era teams would put a premium on that kinda middle infield defense. In the NL plenty of guys have jobs in the #8 hole because they play great D. He's also extremely young and still growing. If you want to be able to acquire talent without giving anything up (draft pick, trade) you have to pay for it, that's how the system works.It's better to risk a player not panning out than to tread water for 3 years winning 70 games each season and spending the same amount of money on a RP.

Again, you can't fault injury for any of these players. Injuries happen, so you need to throw that out of your argument. Are you going to complain that Wainwright isn't worth his $10m because he missed last season? Once Ynoa got here and was really evaluated, he was up in that Hernandez/Pineda level player. It's a shame he got hurt, but you sound like Peter Angelos saying oh we can't risk signing this guy because what if he gets hurt and doesn't earn his salary?

Yes, I think it's an extremely weak case to try to say that these guys aren't worth money because they got injured or because they are 23 years old under 60 IP and are not all-stars yet. You seem to have a misconstrued way of thinking on how these things work. They are not established ML players, they are still prospects. Some more solid than others.

Yes there are players that don't earn the money they get on sheer playing ability, but there are tons of Rule 4 players that never earn their bonuses either, does that mean you aren't going to draft anymore? Staying completely out of this area just puts us even more behind other teams. And keep in mind that i did agree it's better to spend $3m 10 times at 300k than to one guy, BUT I'm saying that it's not completely smart to stay away from the more expensive guys out of fear either.

Frankly, it doesn't matter who gets the money if it's paid in order to receive the product.

[Pickles]

You're nitpicking and not even using all the facts to make your assessments though. Dice K did not get paid 100m, 50m of his money was a posting fee. That's something that comes with Japaneese pitchers you can't get around, it's not part of his compensation, it's the process MLB has. Pre-injury, as I pointed out, you can't blame guys for getting injured, he was a 3.2 and a 5.1 WAR pitcher. His salary was $14.7m and he was worth $30.7m. Yeah, he was worth it.

Chapman is still a prospect, you can't think of these guys as being like signing CJ Wilson, you have to think of them as signing Dylan Bundy. You have to give them a nice sized salary because that's how the system is designed, but in his 60 IP he's been worth $5.2m so far, you pay that money because you know as he gets better and plays more he will be worth MUCH more than you pay. This year you'll probably see him be worth double what he costs, and increasing as he gets older. I don't hear you complaining that Strasburg hasn't earned his $15.1m. That's a VERY similar situation, but since there are no real rules in the IFA structure it's the wild wild west, both driving up price and allowing any team who wants to pay to jump in and sign them, you don't have to have a high draft pick to do it.

Iglesias' bat is very soft, but he's already Vizquel level defensively. Back in the early 90's before the juiced-era teams would put a premium on that kinda middle infield defense. In the NL plenty of guys have jobs in the #8 hole because they play great D. He's also extremely young and still growing. If you want to be able to acquire talent without giving anything up (draft pick, trade) you have to pay for it, that's how the system works.It's better to risk a player not panning out than to tread water for 3 years winning 70 games each season and spending the same amount of money on a RP.

Again, you can't fault injury for any of these players. Injuries happen, so you need to throw that out of your argument. Are you going to complain that Wainwright isn't worth his $10m because he missed last season? Once Ynoa got here and was really evaluated, he was up in that Hernandez/Pineda level player. It's a shame he got hurt, but you sound like Peter Angelos saying oh we can't risk signing this guy because what if he gets hurt and doesn't earn his salary?

Yes, I think it's an extremely weak case to try to say that these guys aren't worth money because they got injured or because they are 23 years old under 60 IP and are not all-stars yet. You seem to have a misconstrued way of thinking on how these things work. They are not established ML players, they are still prospects. Some more solid than others.

Yes there are players that don't earn the money they get on sheer playing ability, but there are tons of Rule 4 players that never earn their bonuses either, does that mean you aren't going to draft anymore? Staying completely out of this area just puts us even more behind other teams. And keep in mind that i did agree it's better to spend $3m 10 times at 300k than to one guy, BUT I'm saying that it's not completely smart to stay away from the more expensive guys out of fear either.

I am not saying Iglesias is some great player. I am saying that for 10M, he doesn't have to have much of a career to justify the signing.

And my point is that you should be able to have 3 Schoops AND 1 Sano.

I have said it constantly...The team should have an amateur budget(ie foreign and domestic talent) of 15-20M each year.

Internationally, if they just spent 2M more a year, I think we would all be happy. Do you know how much 2 million could buy you? Maybe you get one Sano or maybe you can get 20 Schoops.

That's what I want to see.

In theory, I agree with you that spending monster money on one guy isn't a great way of doing things...but sometimes, it is ok to do that and if we upped the amateur budget, as we should, then it wouldn't be an issue.

But again, guys, its all about effeciency. This is Moneyball 101.

Iglesias might be "worth" 10 mill for the Red Sox. But if they could have got the same production for a MiL FA, and I bet they could have, then that's what they should have done.

Chapman might be "worth" 30 mil for the Reds, but if they could have got the same prodcution from a 3rd draft pick for 300,000, that's what they should have done.

And yes, injuries happen, and it's exactly why you don't want to put all your eggs in one basket.

If I thought the O's were going to start spending records amounts of money on the Int. market year in and year out then it wouldn't really matter. But we all know they aren't and really, they probably can't. So they need to be more effecient. And surfing the top of the market is not the way to accomplish that.

[Pickles]

The Cuban league kind of like Japan, with ML talent but also A ball players mixed in, but it is deeper than Japaneese leagues are, so it's closer to AAA/AAAA where Japan is probably closer to AA.

I'd like to see source info for that. From everything I've ever read the Japanese League is the best in the world outside of ML baseball and the Cuban League is notorious for being thin in talent.

He pretty much is Ozzie Smith with the glove actually.

O, so he's the greatest defensive player in the history of the game? Well that's pretty damn good. Somehow I doubt it.

And I never disagreed with you on the last part, but my point is you could have 3 Schoops AND Sano.

You could, but let's be pragmatic. We could sign Fielder, Wilson, Jackson, and Darvish this offseasn too. We won't. The O's need to make choices, even at the Internation level of where they're going to invest their finite resources. Spreading the money around is infinitely more effecient.

[Lucky Jim]

O, so he's the greatest defensive player in the history of the game? Well that's pretty damn good. Somehow I doubt it.

He also played this season at 21. I'd hardly call that "extremely young."

[JTrea81]

Well, the Orioles have basically said they aren't signing Fielder or Wilson, yet it doesn't stop you from talking about them.

No the media has speculated they aren't signing Fielder and Wilson.

All Duquette has said is that the free agent market has a lot of risk and it's not his preferred way of building and that he won't actually reveal his FA strategy.

Buck has danced around the subject as well.

And unlike Cespedes, Fielder has been linked to the Orioles several times over the past few years.

[shylock]

Allstar just made some excellent points. And throw me in the 3 Schoops and a Sano club too. It's should be mandatory that we sign 10 guys for 300k every season, and 30 more for 30k. But sometimes, you gotta go after "your guy." Why can the stinking Bucs do it, but we can't?

I do think people fail to realize that these players are prospects. You gotta pay to play though. This team has been competitive in the rule 4, but they suck out loud in the IFA department.