Proof that Raffy was clean?

[El Gordo]

I wish I believed that he was duped or there was a mistake. Raffy was one of my favorite players and I was heartbroken to hear the news.

Unfortunately, Canseco seemed to be telling the truth far more than anyone wanted to believe at the time or even wants to believe now. It's obvious that PED use was incredibly widespread and that only a very, very few got caught or implicated in the various investigations. A lot of players were putting up amazing stats. Now...not so much. I believe that Raffy was just unfortunate enough to get caught. Ironic because there were players on that team that have now admitted to taking PED's that didn't get caught. But in the end Raffy took steroids and he got caught.

Congress investigated Raffy exhaustively and found no evidence that he ever used steroids prior to his appearence before them. They interviewed coaches and trainers from his entire career and only Canseco said he used steroids. I would take the results of their investigation over Jose Coneco's word. Yes he was right about the extent of Steroid use but he's also been caught in many lies.

[Can_of_corn]

The decision to prosecute both really wasn't about steroids. Tons of people involved in steroid investigations were never prosecuted for anything.

You are right. The Bonds prosecution was about him setting the all time home run record.

[CA-ORIOLE]

Just think of all the unfortunate souls who have tested positive that were either tricked or didn't know what they were taking. I think the percentage of people who actually knew they were taking a banned substance stands at something around 5%.

Members of the military get tested for drugs all the time. There is almost no way out of a positive test result that will virtually ruin, if not end a career. If you know you're being tested, you should damn well know what you're taking in your body.

[CA-ORIOLE]

You are right. The Bonds prosecution was about him setting the all time home run record.

No, not quite COC.

[Can_of_corn]

No, not quite COC.

You are going to have a dickens of a time convincing me that there was not a personal agenda attached specifically to Bonds that brought that case to fruition.

How many days did Greg Anderson stay in jail? For contempt? Over perjury charges?

[CA-ORIOLE]

You are going to have a dickens of a time convincing me that there was not a personal agenda attached specifically to Bonds that brought that case to fruition.

How many days did Greg Anderson stay in jail? For contempt? Over perjury charges?

Bonds was high profile and was the perfect target for perjury and obstruction of justice charges. Nobody cares about or will ever remember Greg Anderson.

[Can_of_corn]

Bonds was high profile and was the perfect target for perjury and obstruction of justice charges. Nobody cares about or will ever remember Greg Anderson.

I was using him to illustrate the insane lengths they went to over something as small potatoes (and hard to prove) as perjury. The amount of resources that went into the case was completely out of proportion to the severity of the charges.

[Frobby]

Congress investigated Raffy exhaustively and found no evidence that he ever used steroids prior to his appearence before them. They interviewed coaches and trainers from his entire career and only Canseco said he used steroids. I would take the results of their investigation over Jose Coneco's word. Yes he was right about the extent of Steroid use but he's also been caught in many lies.

It has been a long time since I read the Congressional report on their investigation, but I don't recall an "exhaustive" review of Raffy's past. I recall a very detailed review of the events leading to his positive test in 2005. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I don't remember that (and I'm not in position to check right now).

Edit -- I've checked, and Congressional staff did interview various Texas Rangers doctors and trainers, plus Ivan Rodriguez and Juan Gonzalez, all of whom said they had no knowledge of Raffy using steroids and never suspected him of doing so. I still don't think that proves much, since I wouldn't expect a player to be doing this in front of doctors or trainers (or other players). I wonder if these doctors and trainers ever saw Canseco taking steroids -- they should have been asked that. I'll bet they all would have said no.

[CA-ORIOLE]

I was using him to illustrate the insane lengths they went to over something as small potatoes (and hard to prove) as perjury. The amount of resources that went into the case was completely out of proportion to the severity of the charges.

Tell that to Martha Stewart. The issue is unrelated to the severity of the initial charges ...... that's the point. Perjury and obstruction of justice are not considered "small potatoes", especially when the public is made aware of it and perceives somebody is getting away with it. Those are the type of select cases that will often be prosecuted to set an example.

[Can_of_corn]

Tell that to Martha Stewart. The issue is unrelated to the severity of the initial charges ...... that's the point. Perjury and obstruction of justice are not considered "small potatoes", especially when the public is made aware of it and perceives somebody is getting away with it. Those are the type of select cases that will often be prosecuted to set an example.

They didn't allocate near the resources in the Stewart case.

Anyway, I said you were not likely to convince me that there wasn't a personal angle to the case.

[CA-ORIOLE]

They didn't allocate near the resources in the Stewart case.

Anyway, I said you were not likely to convince me that there wasn't a personal angle to the case.

They didn't allocate the resources in the Stewart case because they didn't need them. Other than Bonds hubris and being a big fish to fry and lay out before the public, I doubt there was any "personal angle" to the case any more that there was with Clemens, or Betty Crocker fans upset with Martha Stewart.

[MrOrange82]

They didn't allocate near the resources in the Stewart case.

Anyway, I said you were not likely to convince me that there wasn't a personal angle to the case.

The resources that went into the case from a prosecutorial perspective almost certainly has something to do with the resources available to the person being investigated.

How many dumb----s who perjure themselves have access to multimillion dollar legal teams?

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but the amount of "resources" poured into the Bonds investigation by the government, in a vacuum, doesn't necessarily imply that there was some kind of vendetta at play, or that the government doesn't ordinarily care about similar charges to the same degree.

[Frobby]

The resources that went into the case from a prosecutorial perspective almost certainly has something to do with the resources available to the person being investigated.

How many dumb----s who perjure themselves have access to multimillion dollar legal teams?

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but the amount of "resources" poured into the Bonds investigation by the government, in a vacuum, doesn't necessarily imply that there was some kind of vendetta at play, or that the government doesn't ordinarily care about similar charges to the same degree.

The BALCO investigation certainly didn't start off as targeting Barry Bonds. Victor Conte was the main target. But those athletes who were believed by prosecutors to have lied got prosecuted, and it wasn't just Bonds. Marion Jones, Dana Stubblefield, a cyclist named Tammy Thomas and a track coach all got prosecuted for lying under oath, and all pled guilty. So you can't really say Bonds was singled out.

As to Clemens, it's apparent that either he or McNamee lied under oath to Congress. Somebody was going to be prosecuted there, and the prosecutors obviously thought the evidence against Clemens was stronger. But, apparently not strong enough to find Clemens guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

[MrOrange82]

The BALCO investigation certainly didn't start off as targeting Barry Bonds. Victor Conte was the main target. But those athletes who were believed by prosecutors to have lied got prosecuted, and it wasn't just Bonds. Marion Jones, Dana Stubblefield, a cyclist named Tammy Thomas and a track coach all got prosecuted for lying under oath, and all pled guilty. So you can't really say Bonds was singled out.

As to Clemens, it's apparent that either he or McNamee lied under oath to Congress. Somebody was going to be prosecuted there, and the prosecutors obviously thought the evidence against Clemens was stronger. But, apparently not strong enough to find Clemens guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

Sadly, and notwithstanding the fact that I'm not a prosecutor, I was still in law school when the Clemens case was ongoing. Suffice it to say that things might've turned out differently if I'd been able to apply my common sense approach to justice to that situation.

(i.e., "folks...his head is ----ing huge. I mean, the guy looks like he ate a Pep Boy. C'mon now.")

(no, not quitting my day job)

[Trackmaster]

I would think that if Raffy was clean, and the test was a false positive that he would have lawyered up, and gotten that test expunged, at least tried to use the media to clear his name in public. It just makes no sense to sit on your hands if you know that you're innocent.