Ken Rosenthal's take on where Soriono will go?!?!

[mweb]

I agree. I would rather have a comparable 28 yr old, too.

But, we don't have a comparable 28 yr old available this year. THerefore, I would take my chances on this 31 yr old, this year.

We can either wait another year or two or five until the "perfect" 28 yr old FA comes around again, and hope that he wants to be an Oriole too, or we can go all out to try and sign Soriano (and others) to help Miggy and the Orioles compete.

IMO, we must either overpay to sign Soriano and Matsuzaka (or Schmidt/Zito) or we must blow it all up and trade Miggy, Ramon, Mora....

Spinning our wheels by signing a Suppan and an Alou do nothing for us.

I'm sure I missed your explanation on this, but I would say ARam is a comparable 28 year old. Obviously different position, but they would basically fill the same hole since More would go to LF if ARam was signed. As far as offensive production goes, they're comparable, with ARam clearly having the edge.

[66-70-83-??]

However, the Tigers reference is an absolute joke. You act as if they went out and made big moves and took risks while we did not, while in fact, we made more big moves, and probably better moves as a whole. You give them credit for their moves and say we should follow their example, however we already did what they did in free agency/trades, and again, arguably better.

Not really.

They were a joke of a franchise. So what did their owner do ?

He hired a respected GM and gave him the power to make decisions. The GM went out and made key moves (and some bold/risky) from management down through the players.

The GM signed IROD, Magglio, Rogers and was roundly criticized for the contracts he gave out too them. Too risky- too much money for older, uncertain players. Rogers is 40+, IROD is "old" for a catcher. Magglio was coming off major knee injury.

He traded for Polanco and Casey. And he lured a highly respected manager to lowly Detroit.

The results speak for themselves. Sure, "luck" played a role, too. It cuts both ways- imagine how good their bullpen would have been if Percival didnt break down. But, it isn't fair to discount the rapid and sure progress that they made.

[66-70-83-??]

I'm sure I missed your explanation on this, but I would say ARam is a comparable 28 year old. Obviously different position, but they would basically fill the same hole since More would go to LF if ARam was signed. As far as offensive production goes, they're comparable, with ARam clearly having the edge.

ARAM- YES! I would take him. I forgot about him. I would take him over Soriano.

But, I just do not see the Orioles asking Mora to move to LF to make room for him.

[geschinger]

Not really.

They were a joke of a franchise. So what did their owner do ?

He hired a respected GM and gave him the power to make decisions. The GM went out and made key moves (and some bold/risky) from management down through the players.

The GM signed IROD, Magglio, Rogers and was roundly criticized for the contracts he gave out too them. Too risky- too much money for older, uncertain players. Rogers is 40+, IROD is "old" for a catcher. Magglio was coming off major knee injury.

He traded for Polanco and Casey. And he lured a highly respected manager to lowly Detroit.

The results speak for themselves. Sure, "luck" played a role, too. It cuts both ways- imagine how good their bullpen would have been if Percival didnt break down. But, it isn't fair to discount the rapid and sure progress that they made.

It was all about the pitching...

I submit that had the Orioles pitchers developed as well as Detroits did and put up a 3.84 ERA and Detroits pitchers pitched as poorly as Baltimore's did then the Tigers would of been a 90 loss team and the O's would of been a 90 win team. And the Baltimore acquisitions would be being discussed on Tigers Hangout as great moves and they'd be talking about their inept front office not having done enough.

[mweb]

Not really.

They were a joke of a franchise. So what did their owner do ?

He hired a respected GM and gave him the power to make decisions. The GM went out and made key moves (and some bold/risky) from management down through the players.

The GM signed IROD, Magglio, Rogers and was roundly criticized for the contracts he gave out too them. Too risky- too much money for older, uncertain players. Rogers is 40+, IROD is "old" for a catcher. Magglio was coming off major knee injury.

He traded for Polanco and Casey. And he lured a highly respected manager to lowly Detroit.

The results speak for themselves. Sure, "luck" played a role, too. It cuts both ways- imagine how good their bullpen would have been if Percival didnt break down. But, it isn't fair to discount the rapid and sure progress that they made.

I agree about the hiring of a highly respected GM and let him do his job part, along with the manager part, but that's not part of Bocca's arguement. As far as those signings go, we signed Miggy, Javy/Ramon, Ponson/Benson. That's spending at least as much money I believe, taking risks, and getting good results for the most part.

Polanco and Casey have nothing to do with his arguement either.

I'm not discounting their progress, I'm saying that we made similiar big moves(obviously not as risky as Magglio), spent similiar money, and got similiar results from those players. Their progress is because their young pitchers did a lot better than ours, Guillen came out of nowhere to be a star, some other guys stepped up, and Leyland.

And them signing Magglio has nothing to do with Soriano. If we were arguing about Nomar or another injury risk, it'd be more pertinent.

[66-70-83-??]

It was all about the pitching...

I submit that had the Orioles pitchers developed as well as Detroits did and put up a 3.84 ERA and Detroits pitchers pitched as poorly as Baltimore's did then the Tigers would of been a 90 loss team and the O's would of been a 90 win team. And the Baltimore acquisitions would be being discussed on Tigers Hangout as great moves and they'd be talking about their inept front office not having done enough.

So, you give no credit to their hitting (3rd in HR, 5th in runs) ?

And you aren't giving any credit to Dombrowski ? Leyland ? The owner ?

The pitching is very important (Verlander, Bonderman, etc) but so is having a competent, functional organization that allows the GM to make decisions, who allows the manager to hire his own coaches, etc........

It isn't "all about the pitching". There are many differences between the two organizations. THere are more reasons than just pitching to explain the difference in results between the two teams.

[mweb]

So, you give no credit to their hitting (3rd in HR, 5th in runs) ?

And you aren't giving any credit to Dombrowski ? Leyland ? The owner ?

The pitching is very important (Verlander, Bonderman, etc) but so is having a competent, functional organization that allows the GM to make decisions, who allows the manager to hire his own coaches, etc........

It isn't "all about the pitching". There are many differences between the two organizations. THere are more reasons than just pitching to explain the difference in results between the two teams.

Yes, there is a difference in the hitting, but that is not created by the FA's they signed vs the ones we signed. Miggy>Magglio...Ramon>Pudge. And it's not close.

[geschinger]

So, you give no credit to their hitting (3rd in HR, 5th in runs) ?

And you aren't giving any credit to Dombrowski ? Leyland ? The owner ?

The pitching is very important (Verlander, Bonderman, etc) but so is having a competent, functional organization that allows the GM to make decisions, who allows the manager to hire his own coaches, etc........

It isn't "all about the pitching". There are many differences between the two organizations. THere are more reasons than just pitching to explain the difference in results between the two teams.

No, I'm not taking any credit away from Dombrowski, getting him was a great move. And their organization is definately a lot more functional. But that doesn't change the fact that it's all about pitching.

But let's not pretend that having the best pitching staff in baseball isn't reason number 1, 2, and 3 for their success this year.

If the O's young pitching gells and they put up a 3.84 team ERA in 2007 it wouldn't take any monster acquisitions for them to contend.

[rolliefingers]

Yes, there is a difference in the hitting, but that is not created by the FA's they signed vs the ones we signed. Miggy>Magglio...Ramon>Pudge. And it's not close.

They got 81 HRs combined from Inge, Monroe and Thames (although only Thames really had a good offensive season - 124 OPS+). Raise your hand if you predicted that.

The difference between the O's and the Tigers is pitching. Both the bullpen and rotation. They also didn't play the season with an offensive black hole in LF.

We've done well for ourselves in the FA market, despite having a gridlocked FO. The difference is that their young arms have delivered and ours mostly haven't. Ordonez has NOTHING to do with it, and Rodriguez had a little bit to do with it. Rogers, well, we missed the boat.

BTW, my point is, and always has been, that we do not need a big-money FA to have a good team. We need several good players, not one or two great ones. And we need the pitching to come through, just like everyone in baseball does. What I'm saying is that in order for us to compete in the next few years, sure we need to make good acquisitions, but we also need a lot of luck (players not getting injured, for one). If DET hadn't had a healthy Bonderman, Zumaya and Verlander, they might not have even had a winning record.

[66-70-83-??]

BTW, my point is, and always has been, that we do not need a big-money FA to have a good team. We need several good players, not one or two great ones. And we need the pitching to come through, just like everyone in baseball does. What I'm saying is that in order for us to compete in the next few years, sure we need to make good acquisitions, but we also need a lot of luck.

No one is arguing that we do not need a big-money FA to have a good team.

But, if one is available and we can afford it, especially at a position of need- why not ? It makes us that much better than another older stopgap or middle of the road player. Not to mention that signing a superstar does improve the morale of the team and energizes the fans more than a yawner of a signing.

The difference between the O's and the Tigers is pitching.

Ordonez has NOTHING to do with it, and Rodriguez had a little bit to do with it. Rogers, well, we missed the boat.

This is where you lose many- Ordonez has "NOTHING" to do with their success ? Dumbrowski, Leyland, and the other 24 players would laugh at that assessment. He didn't have a typical Ordonez year, but he hit 24 HR, 104 RBI, and an .827 OPS which is higher than Tejada's career avg (and he is a pretty good player), and higher than our RF (.791) and I doubt people here would say that Markakis didn't add value to our lineup.

The difference between the Orioles goes way beyond the pitching. It starts at the top with the owner/GM/mgr and how the organization is run.

We aren't just a little luck away from being the Tigers.

[Boca Bird]

I'm not re-reading that disaster of a thread to get an explanation that doesn't make sense and/or have merit. I don't have much of a problem with your position on Soriano though, I wouldn't spend as much for him, but your position is somewhat understandable on that.

Wow, so when someone calls something in advance and it happens, it still doesn't make sense or have merit. Even I.S. ackwoledged me being right in that thread. HE even offered me a cookie

However, the Tigers reference is an absolute joke. You act as if they went out and made big moves and took risks while we did not, while in fact, we made more big moves, and probably better moves as a whole. You give them credit for their moves and say we should follow their example, however we already did what they did in free agency/trades, and again, arguably better. To finish following their example, we would need our young pitching to step it up many notches, find a few diamonds in the rough, and get lucky like the Tigers did with Guillen.

Oh, so now you're actually acknowledging that the Tigers FA signings helped them? During the overpaying thread, you acted as if the FA's were not a factor in helping them at all. As a matter of fact, you propsed starting Thames over Ordonez. You questioned what affect a HOF catcher had on its young pitching staff. You scoffed that (23 scoreless postseason IP) KRog was worth his contract. How Jones as a closer allowing Zumaya another year to develop wasn't that important

Moreover, its not a joke. You just can't fathom the aspect of RESULTS. The Tigers were bold and overpaid, and even though they didn't win the WS, they are now officially repectable. The O's situation is similar to the Tigers in that they are one of the worst franchises in baseball (just like Detorit used to be). IF they want to get back to respectability before this decade ends, they have to take advantage of free agency.They have the resouces, put them back in the team

If you want to argue we should take more risks, spend more money, well great, I'm all for that, although my risks would be different than yours, but please stop with this absurd Tigers arguement.

How is it absurd? The Tigers, like us had trouble attracting FA's. The Tigers believed they had good core young pitching. Sound familiar ? They were a proud franchise mired in consecutive losing seasons streak. Where have I heard tha before? The Tigers comparison is an apt analogy. After the Tigers got in the WS, several local sportswriters made the same comparison. I guess they are all way off base too. Everyone is wrong, right ?

First you said Det's FA signing ahd nothing to do with the Tigers success. Now you're changing the argument to our FA signings were "better". AS time goes by, you keep changing the argument. One could only wonder what you thought when Ordonez hit the homer to put in the series

Calling something absurd doesn't make it absurd

[Boca Bird]

It was all about the pitching...

I submit that had the Orioles pitchers developed as well as Detroits did and put up a 3.84 ERA and Detroits pitchers pitched as poorly as Baltimore's did then the Tigers would of been a 90 loss team and the O's would of been a 90 win team. And the Baltimore acquisitions would be being discussed on Tigers Hangout as great moves and they'd be talking about their inept front office not having done enough.

If "ifs" and "buts" were candies and nuts, everyday would be Christmas

[Mark Carver]

This is where you lose many- Ordonez has "NOTHING" to do with their success ? Dumbrowski, Leyland, and the other 24 players would laugh at that assessment. He didn't have a typical Ordonez year, but he hit 24 HR, 104 RBI

Ordonez had a typical year based on his last 2 years...

2004 - 110 OPS+

2005 - 113 OPS+

2006 - 113 OPS+

Certainly not worth the $15m a year owed to him the next 5 years.

and an .827 OPS which is higher than Tejada's career avg (and he is a pretty good player),

What is that? Your saying that Ordonez is better than Tejada? What does his career average OPS have to do with anything about what Ordonez his this year. Tejada had a 126 OPS+ to Ordonez 113 OPS+ this year. That's all that matters.

and higher than our RF (.791) and I doubt people here would say that Markakis didn't add value to our lineup.

Ordonez was still in the minors at age 22 (Markakis age).

The difference between the Orioles goes way beyond the pitching. It starts at the top with the owner/GM/mgr and how the organization is run.

We aren't just a little luck away from being the Tigers.

[Boca Bird]

Yes, there is a difference in the hitting, but that is not created by the FA's they signed vs the ones we signed. Miggy>Magglio...Ramon>Pudge. And it's not close.

Sorry I had to clean my monitor after I spit my drink out on it. I agree with Miggy, but Irod is the best catcher EVER, and a sure 1st ballot HOFer. The only advantage Ramon has over IRod is youth. You are really missing the boat if you don't think Irod had anything to do with that young pitching staff or Roger's resurgence.

Before you tell me that I have no "merit" or that I'm "absurd" you can read the Tigers pitcher's comments about what Pudge has done to help them develop

[Frobby]

Sorry I had to clean my monitor after I spit my drink out on it. I agree with Miggy, but Irod is the best catcher EVER, and a sure 1st ballot HOFer. The only advantage Ramon has over IRod is youth. You are really missing the boat if you don't think Irod had anything to do with that young pitching staff or Roger's resurgence.

Before you tell me that I have no "merit" or that I'm "absurd" you can read the Tigers pitcher's comments about what Pudge has done to help them develop

Your point is irrelevant to what mweb8 was saying. He was only talking about offense, and he was only talking about during the period covered by the players' current contracts. Pudge's offense has slipped badly the least 2 years and I think it is fair to say Ramon is the better offensive player, just as Miggy is a better offensive player than Ordonez now.

I happen to agree with you, however, that Pudge's defense cannot be ignored when analyzing the imapct of that acquisition. He's awesome. And his history with both the Marlins and the Tigers shows he's very adept at handling young pitchers.