Ken Rosenthal's take on where Soriono will go?!?!

[geschinger]

Becaue we all know the goal is to not be saddled with any long term bad contrats.

I'd rather win 84 games with some bad contracts than win 70 games without any bad contracts.

The goal is to win. Teams without unlimited payrolls that saddle themselves with bad contracts don't. I don't want to be the second coming of the Colorodo Rockies or Texas Rangers teams of a few years back.

I'd much rather be the second coming of the Athletics or Twins or the Yankees of the mid/late 90s. Build like the A's and Twins and Yankees but unlike the A's and Twins, we have the resources to resign players who we develop into stars.

[El Gordo]

Irod is the best catcher EVER,

Johnny Bench? Roy Campanella?, Bill Dickey? Yogi? Munson? Fisk?

[Flosman]

QUICK! Somebody call the Warehouse and let them know! Go figure...for the last decade or so we've been almost entirely inept at both!

I disagree with this we have used FA effectively since the year we signed Miggy and Lopez. Recently we have developed Major league players. However the organization is still trying to overcome the hangover of 10 years or so of horrible drafting and player development. Unless you are the Yankees you simply can't buy playoff appearances. For the record the Yankees current run is not based entirely on buying players either it started with player development during George's suspension. Currently the MFYs only add a couple of pieces a year always adding to thier core not replacing the entire thing. At the point that the O's develop enough players that they have atleast 8 league averag or better position players and 7 above average pitchers the O's level of FA involvement will be considered adequate.

[Frobby]

How about we win 84 games with several short-term deals instead? Or would that not "excite the fan base" enough?

I guarantee you that if this team plays well again next year, people will come back, Soriano or no. It's about putting a good team on the field that is sustainable. Forget all this "the fans want to see money spent" stuff. The fans want to see a winner, period. The question is how do we get there. I do not think Soriano is the answer.

I agree with you that the fans mostly just want to see a better team, and they really don't care how they get there.

Whether the O's should chase Soriano depends in part on how much they will be allowed to spend to improve the team. If getting him means we won't have enough money left to improve in other areas, then I have to agree with you. But if we could get Soriano AND improve some other spots, I'd be for it even if Soriano will be grossly overpaid in the back end of his deal.

[rolliefingers]

I agree with you that the fans mostly just want to see a better team, and they really don't care how they get there.

Whether the O's should chase Soriano depends in part on how much they will be allowed to spend to improve the team. If getting him means we won't have enough money left to improve in other areas, then I have to agree with you. But if we could get Soriano AND improve some other spots, I'd be for it even if Soriano will be grossly overpaid in the back end of his deal.

I agree. I'm fine with getting Soriano is the payroll goes up significantly, and we make sure that the bullpen and bench are taken care of. Unfortunately, if we were to get Soriano, I could see us sticking with guys like Chavez and Fahey because we ran out of money. We don't even have a budget yet, apparently!

[mweb]

Wow, so when someone calls something in advance and it happens, it still doesn't make sense or have merit. Even I.S. ackwoledged me being right in that thread. HE even offered me a cookie

Oh, so now you're actually acknowledging that the Tigers FA signings helped them? During the overpaying thread, you acted as if the FA's were not a factor in helping them at all. As a matter of fact, you propsed starting Thames over Ordonez. You questioned what affect a HOF catcher had on its young pitching staff. You scoffed that (23 scoreless postseason IP) KRog was worth his contract. How Jones as a closer allowing Zumaya another year to develop wasn't that important

Moreover, its not a joke. You just can't fathom the aspect of RESULTS. The Tigers were bold and overpaid, and even though they didn't win the WS, they are now officially repectable. The O's situation is similar to the Tigers in that they are one of the worst franchises in baseball (just like Detorit used to be). IF they want to get back to respectability before this decade ends, they have to take advantage of free agency.They have the resouces, put them back in the team

How is it absurd? The Tigers, like us had trouble attracting FA's. The Tigers believed they had good core young pitching. Sound familiar ? They were a proud franchise mired in consecutive losing seasons streak. Where have I heard tha before? The Tigers comparison is an apt analogy. After the Tigers got in the WS, several local sportswriters made the same comparison. I guess they are all way off base too. Everyone is wrong, right ?

First you said Det's FA signing ahd nothing to do with the Tigers success. Now you're changing the argument to our FA signings were "better". AS time goes by, you keep changing the argument. One could only wonder what you thought when Ordonez hit the homer to put in the series

Calling something absurd doesn't make it absurd

Your putting so many words in my mouth it's not even funny. I never said half the stuff you're claiming I did. Of course the FA's they signed have helped them, although not as much as you would expect given the investment. They could have easily gotten just as good or better help while spending less money and committing less years to free agents. And their free agents are far from being the key to their success and may hinder their ability to keep their own or add other top free agents.

I've mentioned this same argument(comparing what the Tigers did to what the O's did) before, so I'm not sure how I'm changing it. And you still haven't responded to it. We did what they did in terms of free agency, and probably better. If you want us to emulate the Tigers, well we've already done the free agency step, we just need our young pitching to step it up a lot and some other guys to step it up. But again, I want to the O's to add more, to spend money, just not for Soriano if he gets what I expect him to get.

[mweb]

Sorry I had to clean my monitor after I spit my drink out on it. I agree with Miggy, but Irod is the best catcher EVER, and a sure 1st ballot HOFer. The only advantage Ramon has over IRod is youth. You are really missing the boat if you don't think Irod had anything to do with that young pitching staff or Roger's resurgence.

Before you tell me that I have no "merit" or that I'm "absurd" you can read the Tigers pitcher's comments about what Pudge has done to help them develop

Yes Irod is going to be a HOF'er, although not likely the best catcher ever, but Ramon had a better individual season than he did. His bat is clearly an advantage. I'm not saying Irod doesn't help the pitching, but I don't think nearly as much as you think he does. Ramon is considered good with pitchers and good defensively as well.

[mweb]

Your point is irrelevant to what mweb8 was saying. He was only talking about offense, and he was only talking about during the period covered by the players' current contracts. Pudge's offense has slipped badly the least 2 years and I think it is fair to say Ramon is the better offensive player, just as Miggy is a better offensive player than Ordonez now.

I happen to agree with you, however, that Pudge's defense cannot be ignored when analyzing the imapct of that acquisition. He's awesome. And his history with both the Marlins and the Tigers shows he's very adept at handling young pitchers.

I agree his defense cannot be ignored, but the Marlins young pitching has done quite well without him, I think the Tigers pitchers would be too. Maybe not as good, but still very good. I also don't recall the Rangers pitching excelling often during Pudge's longe tenure there.

[mweb]

QUICK! Somebody call the Warehouse and let them know! Go figure...for the last decade or so we've been almost entirely inept at both!

We've been at least as good as the Tigers in regards to major free agents.

[rolliefingers]

Originally Posted by Boca Bird

Wow, so when someone calls something in advance and it happens, it still doesn't make sense or have merit. Even I.S. ackwoledged me being right in that thread. HE even offered me a cookie

I didn't see this before because I have you on ignore. You know, for the good of the rest of the board.

I never said you were right about Soriano, or about Ordonez. They could have gotten the same production for much less money, and that's not a business model that we should emulate.

They won the AL pennant, but that doesn't mean we should give Soriano a ridiculous contract and expect that we'll do the same.

[Frobby]

I agree his defense cannot be ignored, but the Marlins young pitching has done quite well without him, I think the Tigers pitchers would be too. Maybe not as good, but still very good. I also don't recall the Rangers pitching excelling often during Pudge's longe tenure there.

Here is what I have noticed with Pudge ever since he was on the Marlins. Not only does he throw out a lot of runners, but he intimidates them from running or even taking a big lead. That is a huge boon to a pitcher. Suddenly it's harder for a runner to score from 2B on a single, or from 1B on a double, because they weren't far off the bag when the play started. Dave Campbell pointed this out when I was listening to a Marlins-Cubs game on the radio, after some runner failed to score from 2nd on a single. I've noticed it ever since.

It's true the Rangers' pitching never really thrived while Pudge was there, but it hasn't since then, either.

[geschinger]

Here is what I have noticed with Pudge ever since he was on the Marlins. Not only does he throw out a lot of runners, but he intimidates them from running or even taking a big lead. That is a huge boon to a pitcher. Suddenly it's harder for a runner to score from 2B on a single, or from 1B on a double, because they weren't far off the bag when the play started. Dave Campbell pointed this out when I was listening to a Marlins-Cubs game on the radio, after some runner failed to score from 2nd on a single. I've noticed it ever since.

It's true the Rangers' pitching never really thrived while Pudge was there, but it hasn't since then, either.

I agree that it definately helps, but how much? I don't think there would be that much difference between IRod and Ramon who is pretty good at slowing down a running game. What I do know is that the Marlins pitching just as good the year after IRod as it was w/IRod.

[Boca Bird]

I agree his defense cannot be ignored, but the Marlins young pitching has done quite well without him,

Really ? What does that even mean? I guess WS appearances, gold gloves, or comments from teamates have no sway when it comes to acknowledging a players performance. Just OBP, right

Who has done "quite well" without him? BTW, define "quite well". So, if I were to show that statistically, they've regressed,it will be attibuted to pitching in the AL or that they've gotten older, or some other extraneous variable. What about their pre-Pudge performance ? Nonetheless, I guess its just a coincidence that Pudge has now guided two different young pitching staffs to the promised land in two different leauges. Anyway, how do you know that they didn't learn from Pudge,either? I mean are we comparing the Marlin young pitching to pre-pudge or post- pudge or both ?

The 2003 marlins staff was

Pavano - Pre -Pudge- He was 9 gms under .500 with an era over 4.55 With Pudge- 12-13 4.30 1.26 Post pudge- He's certainly hasn't done "quite well" since

Willis- Rookie yr with Pudge 14-6 3.30 1.28 and only had a better post-pudge year in 05

Beckett Pre-Pudge -17 career Dec's. With Pudge 9-8 3.04 1.28 WS MVP Post Pudge-has been solid. I don't know if he's been WS MVP solid, though

Redman- Pre-Pudge - 8 gms under .500 with an era in the 5's. With Pudge 14-9 3.59 1.22 Post Pudge-you can't be serious just as bad

Penny- has done about the same post and pre-Pudge that is over .500 with a mid 4ish era

So basically, you have a core of young guys who learned how to pitch under Pudge, but you seem to be saying that they would've done the same no matter who the Catcher was, correct ? A 1st ballot HOFer has no impact on a young pitching staff ? The only pattern I really see is the imarked mprovement of some guys under Pudge's tutleage. No one has gone on to do better without him really. SOme guys turned the corner only while they had Pudge as a C. Its also Strange how some guys who were struggling turned it around suddenly after Pudge was their battery mate,as well.

I think the Tigers pitchers would be too. Maybe not as good, but still very good. I also don't recall the Rangers pitching excelling often during Pudge's longe tenure there.

You think the Tigers would be, yet the Tigers pitchers themselves don't. Hmm, I'll go with what the players think about it.

[Frobby]

I agree that it definately helps, but how much? I don't think there would be that much difference between IRod and Ramon who is pretty good at slowing down a running game. What I do know is that the Marlins pitching just as good the year after IRod as it was w/IRod.

Ramon is very good at slowing the running game, but he's not in Pudge's league.

Ramon 2006: 1094 innings, 55 SB, 42 CS (43.3 CS%)

Pudge 2006: 1054 innings, 25 SB, 26 CS (51.0 CS%)

Look how few guys even tried to run on Pudge.

You are right that the Marlins pitching was very good in 2003 after Pudge left.

[Frobby]

A 1st ballot HOFer has no impact on a young pitching staff ?

I don't know -- if Mike Piazza was catching a young pitching staff, would it help them that he's a 1st ballot HOFer?

Obviously, the fact that Pudge is one of the best defensive catchers who ever lived helps his pitchers quite a lot. If you can separate out his defense, the question of whether he is an above average handler of young pitchers is open to debate and not easily susceptible to empirical testing. I happen to agree with you on the issue, but it is by no means something that can easily be proved/disproved.

Was the White Sox pitching last year great because of A.J. Pierzynski's brilliant handling of pitchers? The team's ERA dropped by 1.30 runs/game after he arrived. So what happened this year -- did he forget how to do it?

Is it not true that the Oriole brass felt that Javy Lopez was a better handler of pitchers than Pudge, and that's one reason why they considered the two to be equal despite Pudge's better defensive stats?