Has our competitive window closed???

[Aristotelian]

Weams , with all due respect I can't believe you viewed this team as competitive. The basically got buried early in the division. The were only really in the thing because of the second "one game playoff" wild card slot.

Most people here thought the team should sell at the deadline. And if they were smart they would have. I'm as much a fan as anyone here, but for petesake can't we atleast keep it real? The Orioles had a zero chance of winning it all even if they squeaked into the playoffs.

Perhaps it's just that competitive means different things to different people.

I did not like the Davies trade, but I was fine with DD going for it. We got to within a couple games of the WC before falling apart. I remember a few people calling for DD to blow it up, but I don't remember them as anywhere near the majority.

Now that the season has played out, we are in a totally different position. I think you are right, we can't pretend this is a competitive team as is. We collapsed at the end of the season and now we are losing Davis and Chen with no plausible replacements. Moreover, we have $40M to potentially play with. It may have made sense to hold the course in July 2015, but not any more. I am optimistic the O's will do something this offseason. The question is will it be enough.

I think weams is right that we have some guys with the potential to step up. Gausman could be huge. The problem is, you can't count on it. You start with a core team that you KNOW is competitive, and then hope you get some breakout guys to put you over the top. I think you have to assume Tillman and KG are #3 types and Ubaldo is a 4 or 5, and Gonzo may not survive the year.

Bring in Price or Kazmir, then you have a rotation that you know will be competitive, and has the potential to be better than that.

[OFFNY]

Weams , with all due respect I can't believe you viewed this team as competitive. They basically got buried early in the division. The were only really in the thing because of the second "one game playoff" wild card slot.

Most people here thought the team should sell at the deadline. And if they were smart they would have. I'm as much a fan as anyone here, but for petesake can't we atleast keep it real? The Orioles had a zero chance of winning it all even if they squeaked into the playoffs.

Perhaps it's just that competitive means different things to different people.

The Orioles were 5 games behind the division leader as late as August 21st:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/BAL/2015-schedule-scores.shtml

The Orioles certainly got buried in the division, partly due to their own gradual and consistent decline from late June onward (they went 40-47 over their final 87 games), and partly due to the Blue Jays' blistering 42-14 record from July 29th through September 30th, but they were not "buried early" by any means.

[DrungoHazewood]

The were only really in the thing because of the second "one game playoff" wild card slot.

I think baseball was ruined when they went to divisions in the 60s, so I don't really count any playoff appearances that weren't a result of the best record in the league. So, yea, not really. But you seem to be saying that teams should be disappointed by a exciting October run that was preceded by a "tainted" wildcard route to the postseason.

[DJHJR86]

My outlook cannot be dampened until I see what the O's FO does in the offseason.

[Redskins Rick]

I think baseball was ruined when they went to divisions in the 60s, so I don't really count any playoff appearances that weren't a result of the best record in the league. So, yea, not really. But you seem to be saying that teams should be disappointed by a exciting October run that was preceded by a "tainted" wildcard route to the postseason.

So, if your team won the WS, via the 2nd wildcard route, would you consider that WS, tainted?

[abbott]

In 2016 we will have:

An All Star playing CF

A future HOFer at 3b

One of the best 2b in the AL

One of the best closers in baseball

The best defensive SS in baseball

One of the best managers in baseball

We will have all of that before making any moves in the off-season. And we have about 40-50 million dollars to use to sign talent. Not a bad place to start from. No guarantees, but an average GM could get this team in contention late in the year.

howd that lineup work out in 2015? One of the best closers in baseball? Maybe. Without O'Day as an All Star 8th inning guy, the closer becomes less important.

Hardy? Maybe he was the best defensive SS during his career. Not now. And his defense doesn't make up for his offense. He aint Mark Belanger

I noticed you failed to mention a starting pitcher, who would be your game 3 ALCS pitcher on the road for the 2016 Baltimore Orioles?

[Redskins Rick]

howd that lineup work out in 2015? One of the best closers in baseball? Maybe. Without O'Day as an All Star 8th inning guy, the closer becomes less important.

Hardy? Maybe he was the best defensive SS during his career. Not now. And his defense doesn't make up for his offense. He aint Mark Belanger

I noticed you failed to mention a starting pitcher, who would be your game 3 ALCS pitcher on the road for the 2016 Baltimore Orioles?

you have two choices.

#1 - You can keep moaning about what a terrible season 2015 was (and it was) and just assume 2016 is going to be a repeat.

or you can

#2 - Wait until 2016 ST is hear and how this team is playing.

[Roll Tide]

I did not like the Davies trade, but I was fine with DD going for it. We got to within a couple games of the WC before falling apart. I remember a few people calling for DD to blow it up, but I don't remember them as anywhere near the majority.

Now that the season has played out, we are in a totally different position. I think you are right, we can't pretend this is a competitive team as is. We collapsed at the end of the season and now we are losing Davis and Chen with no plausible replacements. Moreover, we have $40M to potentially play with. It may have made sense to hold the course in July 2015, but not any more. I am optimistic the O's will do something this offseason. The question is will it be enough.

I think weams is right that we have some guys with the potential to step up. Gausman could be huge. The problem is, you can't count on it. You start with a core team that you KNOW is competitive, and then hope you get some breakout guys to put you over the top. I think you have to assume Tillman and KG are #3 types and Ubaldo is a 4 or 5, and Gonzo may not survive the year.

Bring in Price or Kazmir, then you have a rotation that you know will be competitive, and has the potential to be better than that.

Problem is they are not going to bring in Price or a comparable. We hold out hope every year for a #1 type. The brass is just not willing to spend the money on a single player especially a pitcher.

For the second straight year you will be way more subtraction talent wise than additions.

The net result is a worse record ...not a better one. For every Davis , Cruz, Markakis, Chen that leaves the team adds cheap replacements like Parmalee, Snider, Lough, Worley and you can see the results. A couple years ago DD got all the credit in the world because he hit on a couple of those types of moves. NONE OF THEM paid off last year. The odds say that they are most likely to fail Han succeed.

[Roll Tide]

The Orioles were 5 games behind the division leader as late as August 21st:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/BAL/2015-schedule-scores.shtml

The Orioles certainly got buried in the division, partly due to their own gradual and consistent decline from late June onward (they went 40-47 over their final 87 games), and partly due to the Blue Jays' blistering 42-14 record from July 29th through September 30th, but they were not "buried early" by any means.

The Orioles never got on a good streak last year. They looked like what they were mediocre for most of the year. Without Cruz, Markakis, and the nose dive of the rotation they went the wrong way hard on the close games. It was obvious by watching that the O's weren't going to be there long before they were eliminated.

You're right about Toronto, they had the prospects to trade and they went for it. They were rewarded for doing so.

The Orioles don't have the minor league system. IMO is been bad since back when it produced Cal. The occasional player that it produced is not adequate to sustain a mid level market team.

I advocated for a sell off with good purpose. It will take years to rebuild the farm system even with the right people and philosophy in place. The injuries to the arms of pitchers and mediocre position prospect continue to hold the team back. Losing our best players to free agency and getting comp picks for them sound great. Except the Orioles have a hard enough time just hitting on the high % picks.

[DrungoHazewood]

So, if your team won the WS, via the 2nd wildcard route, would you consider that WS, tainted?

Totally consider the season to have ended on game 162. But not really.

[OFFNY]

The Orioles never got on a good streak last year. They looked like what they were mediocre for most of the year. Without Cruz, Markakis, and the nose dive of the rotation they went the wrong way hard on the close games. It was obvious by watching that the O's weren't going to be there long before they were eliminated.

That's not what you said.

You said that they were buried in the division early.

Weams , with all due respect I can't believe you viewed this team as competitive. They basically got buried early in the division. The were only really in the thing because of the second "one game playoff" wild card slot.

And I pointed out that you were mistaken in your assertion.

The Orioles were 5 games behind the division leader as late as August 21st:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/BAL/2015-schedule-scores.shtml

The Orioles certainly got buried in the division, partly due to their own gradual and consistent decline from late June onward (they went 40-47 over their final 87 games), and partly due to the Blue Jays' blistering 42-14 record from July 29th through September 30th, but they were not "buried early" by any means.

[El Gordo]

So, if your team won the WS, via the 2nd wildcard route, would you consider that WS, tainted?

He'd throw the trophy back. Pssssaw!

[Camden_yardbird]

A lot of Blue Jays had excellent years in 2015. I don't think they'll score 891 runs next season. If they do, well god bless them and there's not a darned thing we can do about it. We need to improve our team, but I don't feel the Jays are invinceable by any means.

I agree, the Orioles have to focus on getting better, and I think the Jays will have serious pitching problems next year. That said, when you are looking at a "window" that has to be done in relation to your direct competition. You could have the 5th best team in baseball, but if the top 4 are also in your division, well, your window is closed.

[osfan83]

I do agree pessimism is annoying, however there are noticeable holes in LF, RF, most likely 1B, Hardy is solid defensively but that's assuming he can stay in the field and I for one don't think much of Caleb Joseph (back up QB syndrome). Chen is arguably our best starter and he's good as gone. Are we really going to place our faith in an erratic Ubaldo and everyone else is who knows.

Yea we have good things in CF, 3B, 2B and our closer but that won't compete with Toronto (man I hate them) and I wouldn't expect the rest of the division to lie down either.

Being reminded of Givens and Brach doesn't really inspire anything, no offense of course

2011 Orioles conversation:

This team is going to continue to suck for a long time...way too many holes

Josh Bell at 3b?

Chris "Texas didn't want me" Davis? The guy is too old to put it together.

Mark Reynolds? This guy is going to set the record for strike outs!

Felix Pie, is he really the answer in LF?

Luke Scott is too streaky.

Koji can't pitch in the Baltimore heat!

Ok, so we are going to rely on a guy we grabbed from the Mexican leagues? Miguel who?

Conclusion...the O's will finish in last in 2012.

[DocJJ]

Just because I am pessimistic about the immediate and long-term future of the team, does not make me less of a fan. A fan follows his team, knows his team, cheers for his team at the games, and hopes his team will succeed. That's me.

To think we're going to be a playoff contender next year is frankly, delusional. The only way I see it is if something shocking happens: Angelos dies. His sons sell the team to a new owner. The new owner is Bill Gates wealthy. He buys David Price, Zach Greinke, Scott Kazmir, Alex Gordon, Yoenis Cespedes, Jason Heyward.

I wish the O's would see that Boston, NY, and Toronto have vastly more talent than we do for the foreseeable future. Therefore, it makes sense to start going in to rebuild mode. Trade off your talent and stockpile prospects. Suffer a few last place finishes to get top 3 draft picks every year (the only way the O's seem to find any talent in the draft). Go for broke on a big name free agent when you are getting close to contention again... I'm afraid the O's will think they can compete and put off this process for a few years, thus taking even longer to sniff the playoffs again...