TT: The other shoe has dropped

[Tx Oriole]

1 hour ago, Nevermore said:

My own take: I have seen worse team's than this. A LOT worse. I  remember those gawdawlful team's during the Syd Thrift years , during that stretch of 14 straight losing years. It's quite possible that the main reason for Os fan pessimism is that stretch of 14 straight losing seasons. Now that we've had a few winning seasons, we talk about "windows closing" and thus are we afraid of heading toward another 14 years of losing. 

Specific players: If the Angelos family wants Manny long term, they will find a way to sign him long term; they will dig up whatever money is needed. I believe that there will be fan backlash if Manny is allowed to walk.  That's why Angelos ponied up the cash to bring Chris Davis back long term.  Davis  may not be that popular among the experts who post here, but he is very popular among ordinary fans, the type that come to OPACY to watch games and spend money and even the fans who watch the team on TV who will be a large sector of the advertising market.

Matt Wieters was another popular Orioles player, though not as popular as Davis. So Os management decided that he was expendable once Castillo was signed. As it turns out, it doesn't seem that Wieters is missed that much by fans now that Castillo has come into his own as the Os starting catcher.

Then why is Ubaldo still here? Most fans have shown that they hate his guts and they want him GONE as soon as possible. I can understand fan disappointment in his performance but I do not understand the vehemence of the fans' reactions. He is a struggling, underperforming pitcher,  he is not a rapist or serial murderer.  So why is he still an Oriole? It might be that Angelos doesn't want to eat that much salary. Or DD doesn't want to admit that he made a huge mistake in signing him. As for Ubaldo's immediate future. It is quite clear that he is no longer succeeding as a starting pitcher.  So Alan Millls should do all that he can to convert him to a long reliever, sort of how coaches converted Zach Britton into a reliever after he failed as a starter. Ubaldo should not be "demoted" as such, he should be taught the most effective ways to pitch out of the pen. At first, he would come in for low leverage or mop up situations. Later on, as he (hopefully) succeeds, he would be used in higher leverage situations.  That way, he can be useful to the team for the rest of the year.  He should be used as a long reliever.  I have serious doubts that he can be effective as a closer or in set- up. He'll never get the type of salary  that he did as a starter and he might have to settle for minor league contracts for future years until he has proven himself as a long reliever. But at least he can continue his career.

There are questions, decisions about  other players and I  could write a book about all of them. Maybe later. 

 

 

Pretty good post. I too remember Those years when Syd was in Baltimore. To be honest I am not happy with some of the things going on in Baltimore.  Not so much about some of the players it's more the FO and Angelos. 

[Sessh]

1 hour ago, Nevermore said:

My own take: I have seen worse team's than this. A LOT worse. I  remember those gawdawlful team's during the Syd Thrift years , during that stretch of 14 straight losing years. It's quite possible that the main reason for Os fan pessimism is that stretch of 14 straight losing seasons. Now that we've had a few winning seasons, we talk about "windows closing" and thus are we afraid of heading toward another 14 years of losing. 

Just because there's been worse doesn't mean there's nothing to worry about until that time. Sure, we've seen 14 years of losing and got really used to what that looks like organizationally and a growing number of people here seem to be waking up to the fact that another such stretch is coming and the warning signs are there. People are right to be afraid because the reality is it's coming down the chute. The only question is how severe will it be? That all depends on how personnel is handled. Trades need to be made and the longer we wait, the less value they have and the less we will get for said players. In the outcome there are no trades made or the organization waits too long, you better believe you'll see a throwback Orioles team that will rival the one Syd Thrift graced us with and it's going to go on for awhile.

Yes, some of us see it coming, want no part of it and see what needs to be done to avoid another decade of dark years. It's not reactionary, it's not illogical and it's not irrational. It's coming unless the things that need to be done are done sooner than later and the more the Orioles stay in the hunt, the less likely it is those things get done and the more likely the organization will pay dearly for the inaction and delusions of the FO that this team has a realistic chance of winning a championship.

[FlipTheBird]

18 hours ago, ORIOLE33 said:

Why do so many people on this site gets so offensive when others are critical of this team?

I've been an O's fan as long as I can remember. I've said this a couple of years ago. I would gladly give up a few HR's for some contact hitters that can steal bases. And when this team isn't hitting HR's, they're hard to team to watch. 

Should I go and find another team?

 

We can dream.

But to answer the actual question - I've no problem with critical posters, at all. At times, I'm plenty critical of the Orioles.

But there's a difference between being critical of certain aspects of the team and sheer trolling, which is what some folks on this board do, no matter what's happening with the team.

[FlipTheBird]

6 hours ago, Ripken said:

It's two bad weeks... but it's because all of the flaws we worry about are out in full force.  I find this team unwatchable.

Every team in the league has flaws. Every team in the league will go through bad stretches. Every team in the league will go through good stretches. Of course a team is harder to watch when it's in one of the bad stretches.

What's preposterous, though, is the number of fans who literally wait on the edge of their seats for a bad week, and then start screaming THE SKY IS FALLING I TOLD YOU THEY SUCK.

[Nevermore]

3 hours ago, Frobby said:

To the contrary, it's hard not to like Ubaldo's personality.    Every time he pitches a really poor game, he stands in front of the media and patiently answers their questions without getting snippy or defensive.    I just wish he didn't have to do that so often. 

Which is why, if coached correctly,  he could make it as a long reliever. He could experience some late- career success.   He won't have to answer media questions and be vilified by frustrated fans.

EDIT: by the way, he has never been vilified by media reps after poor games

[SteveA]

2 hours ago, Sessh said:

Just because there's been worse doesn't mean there's nothing to worry about until that time. Sure, we've seen 14 years of losing and got really used to what that looks like organizationally and a growing number of people here seem to be waking up to the fact that another such stretch is coming and the warning signs are there. People are right to be afraid because the reality is it's coming down the chute. The only question is how severe will it be? That all depends on how personnel is handled. Trades need to be made and the longer we wait, the less value they have and the less we will get for said players. In the outcome there are no trades made or the organization waits too long, you better believe you'll see a throwback Orioles team that will rival the one Syd Thrift graced us with and it's going to go on for awhile.

Yes, some of us see it coming, want no part of it and see what needs to be done to avoid another decade of dark years. It's not reactionary, it's not illogical and it's not irrational. It's coming unless the things that need to be done are done sooner than later and the more the Orioles stay in the hunt, the less likely it is those things get done and the more likely the organization will pay dearly for the inaction and delusions of the FO that this team has a realistic chance of winning a championship.

Yes, giving up on a season and dumping could help shorten a subsequent down period a bit.

But you know what... if we don't draft and develop well (way better than we have) we will eventually have another extended down period anyway.   And if we do draft and develop well, the down period will be fairly short.   Dumping a season (or two) to shortcut the downtime will help a bit, but its effect will be less than the effect of how well we do drafting and developing players.   That HAS to improve or we are screwed either way.

People like you who want to quit on a season where we are in playoff position (still sitting on the #1 wild card spot) in May are....

...well, I guess we have rules about name calling on the board.

And as I have said many times, most of the people in the "punt for the future" crowd wanted to punt in 2012 because there was no way that team could compete, and then wanted the same thing in most of the years since.  Those folks would have bypassed all the excitement of being in pennant races well into September except perhaps the last couple weeks in 2013, in hopes of someday being 25-20 on May 26 and maybe having a 90 win season.

[Nevermore]

1 hour ago, FlipTheBird said:

Every team in the league has flaws. Every team in the league will go through bad stretches. Every team in the league will go through good stretches. Of course a team is harder to watch when it's in one of the bad stretches.

What's preposterous, though, is the number of fans who literally wait on the edge of their seats for a bad week, and then start screaming THE SKY IS FALLING I TOLD YOU THEY SUCK.

These fans scream because many of them really do believe that the sky is falling, that we are headed for another 14 years of losing. 

I don't believe that this is necessarily so.  That depends upon what the FO does in coming years .

 

[Nevermore]

28 minutes ago, SteveA said:

Yes, giving up on a season and dumping could help shorten a subsequent down period a bit.

But you know what... if we don't draft and develop well (way better than we have) we will eventually have another extended down period anyway.   And if we do draft and develop well, the down period will be fairly short.   Dumping a season (or two) to shortcut the downtime will help a bit, but its effect will be less than the effect of how well we do drafting and developing players.   That HAS to improve or we are screwed either way.

So true.  Also how players are managed and coached once the get here.  A good example would be Kevin Gausman.  He is a talented player who should do well in the future, but he is in a rough patch right now.  He needs some coaching to help him out. And of course it depends upon each individual player, how much effort he wants to put in.

[Frobby]

36 minutes ago, Nevermore said:

These fans scream because many of them really do believe that the sky is falling, that we are headed for another 14 years of losing. 

I don't believe that this is necessarily so.  That depends upon what the FO does in coming years .

 

No rebuild should ever take 14 years.    But I do believe that, when the rebuild comes, it will take a good long time to turn things around again.    

[Sessh]

46 minutes ago, SteveA said:

Yes, giving up on a season and dumping could help shorten a subsequent down period a bit.

But you know what... if we don't draft and develop well (way better than we have) we will eventually have another extended down period anyway.   And if we do draft and develop well, the down period will be fairly short.   Dumping a season (or two) to shortcut the downtime will help a bit, but its effect will be less than the effect of how well we do drafting and developing players.   That HAS to improve or we are screwed either way.

People like you who want to quit on a season where we are in playoff position (still sitting on the #1 wild card spot) in May are....

...well, I guess we have rules about name calling on the board.

And as I have said many times, most of the people in the "punt for the future" crowd wanted to punt in 2012 because there was no way that team could compete, and then wanted the same thing in most of the years since.  Those folks would have bypassed all the excitement of being in pennant races well into September except perhaps the last couple weeks in 2013, in hopes of someday being 25-20 on May 26 and maybe having a 90 win season.

Agree mostly with the first part of your post. A lot has to change because there's a lot wrong. At least if things that need to be done are done, there is an acknowledgement of the situation and an attempt to deal with it. Otherwise, we'll be several times more screwed than if we didn't.

Secondly, those people are what? Those people are basing their comments on more than just the start to this season? Yes, they are and there's a LOT more to consider than just the start to this season. To consider only that one thing is to completely ignore the bigger picture entirely. Also, I was never in the camp you speak of nor did I have this opinion until after the 2015 season and it has only intensified since.

People who prefer to wait until it's too late to do anything about it must not have had enough of the dark ages in Baltimore and simply doing well in the regular season without actually winning anything when it matters outweighs the prospects of another dark age and preemptively taking steps to avoid another such fate before it becomes unavoidable. Kinda like driving your car into a wall because you want to go faster when hitting the brakes and steering to the side would save the situation.

[25 Nuggets]

Tonight, perfect encapsulation of the slump.

8th inning, GIFTED bases loaded with no one out.  Blew it.

[Frobby]

Now the RISP shoe is dropping.   We have hit very well in RISP situations this year, and tonight we blew chance after chance after chance.    

By the way, Seth Smith is in a bit of a funk.    Four strikeouts tonight and 0 for his last 11.

[tntoriole]

This 3-12 stretch is the worst baseball played in the years under Buck and I don't see it any longer as just an expected market correction.   No, this team had been very lucky to be 22-10 and is actually as bad a team as has been run out there during Buck's time.  

 

[allquixotic]

2 minutes ago, tntoriole said:

This 3-12 stretch is the worst baseball played in the years under Buck and I don't see it any longer as just an expected market correction.   No, this team had been very lucky to be 22-10 and is actually as bad a team as has been run out there during Buck's time.  

 

What do you expect with Davis, Hardy, Jones, Joseph and Trumbo (plus pitchers Tillman, O'Day, Britton and Brach) all having career years during our window, and now all of them are on the decline, and we're stuck with them for many years in several instances? 

One good thing is with Manny having a dumpster fire of a year this year, we might be able to pressure his agent into a bargain contract. We might be able to get him for around Jones-level cost. Not necessarily the same, probably more, but not Mike Trout more. There's no way Manny will even sniff Trout money.

[Frobby]

I understand why everyone is feeling negative during this losing streak, but I'm not that down.    The team has been losing by razor-thin margins.    I'm confident they'll get it turned around.    I see signs that the pitching is improving, and when the offense shakes off this little cold spell we'll win our share of games.