Hall of Fame Inductees:

[jamalshw]

23 minutes ago, Nite said:

So what that means based on that information is the "Yankee bump" is roughly 5-7% at most. Hardly enough to move the lines on getting someone in.

I disagree with that linear approach. I wasn't one to make the case that there's a large impact for Yankee vs other. I do think large market leads to more media attention and thus a better chance at getting in. I'm not sure the difference in voting is universally a 5-7% bump regardless of where you fall on the spectrum. Bernie is very clearly (at least numerically) under the HoF threshold, yet he got a second go on the ballot. Meanwhile, more borderline guys could see a larger or smaller bump. I don't think it's a clear formula of: "He was a Yankee, plus 5%".

To me, I think Pettitte (since that's where this conversation started) will get a slight bump for being a Yankee. And i think his career would put him as a borderline guy save for the PEDs. Ultimately, I'm not sure where he'll fall, but it'll be interesting.

[SteveA]

4 hours ago, jamalshw said:

I disagree with that linear approach. I wasn't one to make the case that there's a large impact for Yankee vs other. I do think large market leads to more media attention and thus a better chance at getting in. I'm not sure the difference in voting is universally a 5-7% bump regardless of where you fall on the spectrum. Bernie is very clearly (at least numerically) under the HoF threshold, yet he got a second go on the ballot. Meanwhile, more borderline guys could see a larger or smaller bump. I don't think it's a clear formula of: "He was a Yankee, plus 5%".

To me, I think Pettitte (since that's where this conversation started) will get a slight bump for being a Yankee. And i think his career would put him as a borderline guy save for the PEDs. Ultimately, I'm not sure where he'll fall, but it'll be interesting.

Exactly... you know how sometimes a guy will creep up and all of a sudden you'll say "Wow, Adrian Beltre might be a Hall of Famer.   Four years ago I never would have mentioned him in that category".

That will never happen with a guy who plays much of his career with the Yankees.   He'll never HAVE to sneak up on the discussion.   If he's close statistically he'll have enough name recognition to be put over the top.

[25 Nuggets]

10 hours ago, Redskins Rick said:

Tragic death yes, but now autopsy showed he had drugs in his system.

He should not have been flying.

I think that cancels out the emotional bump. IMO

His career WAR is only 65, and for those writers using that as a barometer, going to be a hard sell for him.

 

For writers using WAR as a barometer, 65 is a GOOD sell.  That is HOF territory.

For writers using JAWS as a barometer, he has 57.6 -- just behind Bob Feller and Hal Newhouser, and just ahead of Juan Marichal and Carl Hubbell.  Four no brainer HOFers.

To put it another way, here are the highest scoring starting pitchers who did not pitch in the 19th century (where volume of pitching skews the numbers), who are not in Cooperstown:

1. 103.3 Roger Clemens (yes he's this far ahead)
2. 64.5 Curt Schilling
3. 63.8 Mike Mussina
4. 58.3 Wes Ferrell (on the strength of his hitting)
5. 57.6 Roy Halladay
6. 56.9 Rick Reuschel
7. 56.9 Kevin Brown
8. 55.8 Luis Tiant
9. 54.1 Clayton Kershaw
10. 53.4 Zack Greinke

If I were to guess, I'd say Halladay takes a few years to get in, but ultimately will.

[atomic]

 

 

10 hours ago, foxfield said:

I am not comfortable saying the Hall of Fame is a joke without Clemens, Bonds and Rose.  It sucks to have this situation, but the Hall of Fame is not a joke.  First, let's place the blame where it belongs.  On players first for crossing the line and on the baseball second and regarding steroids, on the writers and yes even us as fans.  With Rose, baseball literally banned him and HOF merely respects baseballs wishes.  For Clemens and Bonds, their direct links to steroids stains not only them, but the game.  The fact that the game knowingly looked away and the very voters who name the HOF members looked away completely explains this conundrum.  But the HOF is not a joke and did not create this mess.

 

In order of preference, I would like to see Shoeless Joe Jackson in, then Rose.  My preference would be for the HOF to not ban, but acknowledge Bonds, Clemens and Aroid proactively in a special class removing them from the vote bringing them into the Hall without pomp and circumstance or without ever inviting them to participate.

To me, that would address all of the issues properly.  Yes, there are others who either will get in who were dirty or will be excluded for being dirty.  There is no perfect solution, I saw all three of these guys play.  I saw Bonds hit one of his HR in Baltimore.  I saw Clemens flip the bird in Baltimore, and saw Aroid with all three of his teams in Baltimore.  These guys cheated in the worst way, but were also among the best to ever play.  I also saw Cal Ripken, Jr. inducted along with Tony Gwynn.

To me, the proper and only way to fix this situation is to take all three of them, along with Rose and Shoeless Joe in a special class, between this years induction and next years vote and simply announce the following:

 

The National Baseball Hall of Fame wishes to announce the recognition of the following players for their historic performance on the field of play during their careers.  Though circumstances around each of them cast aspersion upon their names and even the game itself, their accomplishments on the field will always be discussed with the hallowed members of this shrine.  We therefore, place the following plaques in this special acknowledgment class without further ado nor without additional membership privileges these names:

Shoeless Joe Jackson, Peter Edward Rose, William Roger Clemens, Barry Lamar Bonds, Alexander Emmanuel Rodriguez

*  The plaque will be like any other plaque in the Hall except each of these men will be without hats of any MLB team. 

 

 

Edit to add:  I do not include David Ortiz or Sammy Sosa as it is my opinion that without steroids, neither of them have any potential for HOF consideration.  Clemens, Bonds and Arod, whether you like them or not do.  Yes, this would mean for me neither of Ortiz or Sosa would ever get in.

Why not just ban anyone who played during steroid era? As there was no testing how do you know who was on steroids.   Let's start by removing guys like Ripen and Ryan as their careers are highly suspicious.  Then we can add them after guys like Clemens and Bonds get in. 

Everyone knew most guys in the league were on steroids yet the people not voting for these superstar players were cheering them on when they were playing.   They choose to give them MVP and Cy  young awards.   Baseball owners were glad as all the records being set increased attendance.   

To believe certain star players weren't on steroids is ridiculous.   It is like the tour de France where they can't find anyone who wasn't cheating as non cheaters didn't qualify.

Clemens and Bonds players with or without steroids.   

[Can_of_corn]

9 minutes ago, atomic said:

 

 

Why not just ban anyone who played during steroid era? As there was no testing how do you know who was on steroids.   Let's start by removing guys like Ripen and Ryan as their careers are highly suspicious.  Then we can add them after guys like Clemens and Bonds get in. 

Everyone knew most guys in the league were on steroids yet the people not voting for these superstar players were cheering them on when they were playing.   They choose to give them MVP and Cy  young awards.   Baseball owners were glad as all the records being set increased attendance.   

To believe certain star players weren't on steroids is ridiculous.   It is like the tour de France where they can't find anyone who wasn't cheating as non cheaters didn't qualify.

Clemens and Bonds players with or without steroids.   

When exactly did the steroid era start? 

1889?

1925?

Late 60's?

Early 70's?

Or did it only really begin when records we care about starting getting broken and the players got so big we couldn't keep pretending they were clean?

[Tx Oriole]

On 1/24/2018 at 5:36 PM, OsFanSinceThe80s said:

Just looked it up, Edgar Martinez got 70.4% of the vote.  Maybe he gets his turn next year.  I just want him to get in before big sloppy.  

I just want him to get in. 

[Tx Oriole]

22 hours ago, OsFanSinceThe80s said:

Pettite will only get in because he was a Yankee. I think he is going to have a hard time, Mussina is better and it's been a struggle for him so far.  If Pettite spent his career with the Brewers, he wouldn't have a chance. 

I hope Pettite gets in. When was pitching for the Astros I met him. Was very pleasant. A nice guy. 

[Tx Oriole]

11 hours ago, foxfield said:

I am not comfortable saying the Hall of Fame is a joke without Clemens, Bonds and Rose.  It sucks to have this situation, but the Hall of Fame is not a joke.  First, let's place the blame where it belongs.  On players first for crossing the line and on the baseball second and regarding steroids, on the writers and yes even us as fans.  With Rose, baseball literally banned him and HOF merely respects baseballs wishes.  For Clemens and Bonds, their direct links to steroids stains not only them, but the game.  The fact that the game knowingly looked away and the very voters who name the HOF members looked away completely explains this conundrum.  But the HOF is not a joke and did not create this mess.

 

In order of preference, I would like to see Shoeless Joe Jackson in, then Rose.  My preference would be for the HOF to not ban, but acknowledge Bonds, Clemens and Aroid proactively in a special class removing them from the vote bringing them into the Hall without pomp and circumstance or without ever inviting them to participate.

To me, that would address all of the issues properly.  Yes, there are others who either will get in who were dirty or will be excluded for being dirty.  There is no perfect solution, I saw all three of these guys play.  I saw Bonds hit one of his HR in Baltimore.  I saw Clemens flip the bird in Baltimore, and saw Aroid with all three of his teams in Baltimore.  These guys cheated in the worst way, but were also among the best to ever play.  I also saw Cal Ripken, Jr. inducted along with Tony Gwynn.

To me, the proper and only way to fix this situation is to take all three of them, along with Rose and Shoeless Joe in a special class, between this years induction and next years vote and simply announce the following:

 

The National Baseball Hall of Fame wishes to announce the recognition of the following players for their historic performance on the field of play during their careers.  Though circumstances around each of them cast aspersion upon their names and even the game itself, their accomplishments on the field will always be discussed with the hallowed members of this shrine.  We therefore, place the following plaques in this special acknowledgment class without further ado nor without additional membership privileges these names:

Shoeless Joe Jackson, Peter Edward Rose, William Roger Clemens, Barry Lamar Bonds, Alexander Emmanuel Rodriguez

*  The plaque will be like any other plaque in the Hall except each of these men will be without hats of any MLB team. 

 

 

Edit to add:  I do not include David Ortiz or Sammy Sosa as it is my opinion that without steroids, neither of them have any potential for HOF consideration.  Clemens, Bonds and Arod, whether you like them or not do.  Yes, this would mean for me neither of Ortiz or Sosa would ever get in.

How many Hall of Famers were alcoholics?  The Hall of Fame should be for what a player does on the field. 

[foxfield]

57 minutes ago, atomic said:

 

 

Why not just ban anyone who played during steroid era? As there was no testing how do you know who was on steroids.   Let's start by removing guys like Ripen and Ryan as their careers are highly suspicious.  Then we can add them after guys like Clemens and Bonds get in. 

Everyone knew most guys in the league were on steroids yet the people not voting for these superstar players were cheering them on when they were playing.   They choose to give them MVP and Cy  young awards.   Baseball owners were glad as all the records being set increased attendance.   

To believe certain star players weren't on steroids is ridiculous.   It is like the tour de France where they can't find anyone who wasn't cheating as non cheaters didn't qualify.

Clemens and Bonds players with or without steroids.   

Look I am not looking to argue over who did or did not use.  Clemens Bonds and soon Arod are three absolute no brainers on both steroid users as well as HOF players even if they did.  I was simply responding to a poster who said the Hall of Fame is a joke.  You are making the same point I am...Baseball itself created this problem.  Not the Hall of Fame.  I just put my 2 cent solution out there.  There really are some HOF players who do not want Bonds, Clemens or Arod in their Hall.

I honestly think my solution allows the Hall to move forward with a once and for all solution that both gets these guys in (along with Rose and Shoeless Joe) and stops this embarrassing Im voting for em or Im not voting for them.  Then...if you think say David Ortiz belongs vote him in....if not...dont.

 

[foxfield]

8 minutes ago, Tx Oriole said:

How many Hall of Famers were alcoholics?  The Hall of Fame should be for what a player does on the field. 

There is NO rule for not using alcohol or beating a wife or child.  There are rules for gambling and Steroids.  I dont want to be the morality police...I don't disagree with you, but something needs to be done.  My attempt at a solution simply cleans the slate AND acknowledges what you and I both know.  The guys I named ARE HALL OF FAMERS.  But do we have to make em wait 3 years?  10?  Make the veterans do it?  

Its just a suggestion, it's not like the HOF is reading my post to do something.  But I really think its a fair solution.  You don't like it?  It's ok.  Were good. 

[ORIOLE33]

36 minutes ago, Tx Oriole said:

I hope Pettite gets in. When was pitching for the Astros I met him. Was very pleasant. A nice guy. 

As long as Bonds, Clemens, ARod and others are standing on the podium right next to him.

[tntoriole]

12 hours ago, Redskins Rick said:

Tragic death yes, but now autopsy showed he had drugs in his system.

He should not have been flying.

I think that cancels out the emotional bump. IMO

His career WAR is only 65, and for those writers using that as a barometer, going to be a hard sell for him.

 

I agree.  I was not aware of the autopsy and drug findings.   Sorry. 

[tntoriole]

12 hours ago, foxfield said:

I am not comfortable saying the Hall of Fame is a joke without Clemens, Bonds and Rose.  It sucks to have this situation, but the Hall of Fame is not a joke.  First, let's place the blame where it belongs.  On players first for crossing the line and on the baseball second and regarding steroids, on the writers and yes even us as fans.  With Rose, baseball literally banned him and HOF merely respects baseballs wishes.  For Clemens and Bonds, their direct links to steroids stains not only them, but the game.  The fact that the game knowingly looked away and the very voters who name the HOF members looked away completely explains this conundrum.  But the HOF is not a joke and did not create this mess.

 

In order of preference, I would like to see Shoeless Joe Jackson in, then Rose.  My preference would be for the HOF to not ban, but acknowledge Bonds, Clemens and Aroid proactively in a special class removing them from the vote bringing them into the Hall without pomp and circumstance or without ever inviting them to participate.

To me, that would address all of the issues properly.  Yes, there are others who either will get in who were dirty or will be excluded for being dirty.  There is no perfect solution, I saw all three of these guys play.  I saw Bonds hit one of his HR in Baltimore.  I saw Clemens flip the bird in Baltimore, and saw Aroid with all three of his teams in Baltimore.  These guys cheated in the worst way, but were also among the best to ever play.  I also saw Cal Ripken, Jr. inducted along with Tony Gwynn.

To me, the proper and only way to fix this situation is to take all three of them, along with Rose and Shoeless Joe in a special class, between this years induction and next years vote and simply announce the following:

 

The National Baseball Hall of Fame wishes to announce the recognition of the following players for their historic performance on the field of play during their careers.  Though circumstances around each of them cast aspersion upon their names and even the game itself, their accomplishments on the field will always be discussed with the hallowed members of this shrine.  We therefore, place the following plaques in this special acknowledgment class without further ado nor without additional membership privileges these names:

Shoeless Joe Jackson, Peter Edward Rose, William Roger Clemens, Barry Lamar Bonds, Alexander Emmanuel Rodriguez

*  The plaque will be like any other plaque in the Hall except each of these men will be without hats of any MLB team. 

 

 

Edit to add:  I do not include David Ortiz or Sammy Sosa as it is my opinion that without steroids, neither of them have any potential for HOF consideration.  Clemens, Bonds and Arod, whether you like them or not do.  Yes, this would mean for me neither of Ortiz or Sosa would ever get in.

I like the general idea of an amnesty approach by the Hall.  

I would however separate them from the other plaques in a display area identified as “Forgiveness Alley”.   The overall theme would be that these individuals broke rules and harmed the game and themselves, however that forgiveness is possible and that their achievements will be kept alongside a clear explanation for future fans of each person’s transgressions.

 

 

[foxfield]

5 minutes ago, tntoriole said:

I like the general idea of an amnesty approach by the Hall.  

I would however separate them from the other plaques in a display area identified as “Forgiveness Alley”.   The overall theme would be that these individuals broke rules and harmed the game and themselves, however that forgiveness is possible and that their achievements will be kept alongside a clear explanation for future fans of each person’s transgressions.

 

 

I did that...just differently....

A)  No speeches, their plaques also have no caps so no team recognition.  What teams do is up to teams.

B)  No privileges based on being admitted.  In essence the are in but yet they aren't.  

 

I like your way as well.  I really think something like this has to be done.  And it creatively frees everyone.  Well except for Bonds, Clemens, Arod, and Rose.  I really don't think Shoeless Joe cares at this point.

[SteveA]

9 minutes ago, foxfield said:

I did that...just differently....

A)  No speeches, their plaques also have no caps so no team recognition.  What teams do is up to teams.

B)  No privileges based on being admitted.  In essence the are in but yet they aren't.  

 

Maybe you could put a device on their ankle that gives them an electric shock when they enter the Cooperstown town limits.