Is this rock bottom?

[webbrick2010]

I'm afraid it's not. I'm afraid our management will make one or more of the following blunders:

1. Extend Adam Jones

2. Extend Zach Britton after he comes back and looks pretty good, forgetting that he was having shoulder issues last year and yes they will crop up again

3. Fail to trade Manny

4. Sign Manny

I think they'll will make at least 2 of these blunders and perhaps that will get us to rock bottom

[atomic]

38 minutes ago, webbrick2010 said:

I'm afraid it's not. I'm afraid our management will make one or more of the following blunders:

1. Extend Adam Jones

2. Extend Zach Britton after he comes back and looks pretty good, forgetting that he was having shoulder issues last year and yes they will crop up again

3. Fail to trade Manny

4. Sign Manny

I think they'll will make at least 2 of these blunders and perhaps that will get us to rock bottom

Currently the team has a winning percentage of .261.  Keep that up and we would have the 6th worst winning percentage in modern era (1900 - 2018).  I don't think extending Jones, Britton or Manny is going to make them go much lower.  I mean a good AAA team might be better than us. 

[interloper]

We could be the Reds! So... there's that.

[Moose Milligan]

They can sign Manny, I wouldn't view that as a bad thing.  They've got a lot of money coming off the books soon.

31 minutes ago, interloper said:

We could be the Reds! So... there's that.

Reds have a better farm system.  No Chris Davis, Mark Trumbo on payroll.

I'd trade their situation for ours without having to think too much about it.

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, Moose Milligan said:

They can sign Manny, I wouldn't view that as a bad thing.  They've got a lot of money coming off the books soon.

Reds have a better farm system.  No Chris Davis, Mark Trumbo on payroll.

They do have Votto through his age 40 season.

[esmd]

Rock Bottom was from 1998 through 2011.  No, this is not rock bottom.  We've got some decent looking prospects already here or that should be here next year, we've got the rotation situated where it should be fairly stabilized for the next 2-3 years, and we're in a transition.  While they certainly can make missteps, this is not rock bottom unless they totally screw stuff up.

[Moose Milligan]

4 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

They do have Votto through his age 40 season.

That's fine, although they can't stash him at DH so that's a problem.  But Votto is one of the better hitters of his generation, Davis and Trumbo are not.  While I don't like having anyone on a roster through an age 40 season, if I had to take someone it would be a guy like that who's a .300/.400./.500 career guy.  

If he slides to something like .270, .380, .480 in the later years of that contract, that wouldn't be great but it wouldn't also be terrible.  That would be a dream season for Trumbo or Davis in 2018.  If Votto regresses to that, I think the Reds can live with it.

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, Moose Milligan said:

That's fine, although they can't stash him at DH so that's a problem.  But Votto is one of the better hitters of his generation, Davis and Trumbo are not.  While I don't like having anyone on a roster through an age 40 season, if I had to take someone it would be a guy like that who's a .300/.400./.500 career guy.  

If he slides to something like .270, .380, .480 in the later years of that contract, that wouldn't be great but it wouldn't also be terrible.  That would be a dream season for Trumbo or Davis at that point.  If Votto regresses to that, I think the Reds can live with it.

He's at 247/352/260 as of this morning.

While I don't think that's his current talent level he is 34 and he has six more years on his deal.

[Moose Milligan]

1 minute ago, Can_of_corn said:

He's at 247/352/260 as of this morning.

While I don't think that's his current talent level he is 34 and he has six more years on his deal.

Flaherty is at .339 this morning.   I don't think that's his current talent level, just a hunch.

Ok, I'll keep Votto, you can have Davis and Trumbo.

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, Moose Milligan said:

Flaherty is at .339 this morning.   I don't think that's his current talent level, just a hunch.

Ok, I'll keep Votto, you can have Davis and Trumbo.

Where did I say I'd rather have Davis or Trumbo?  The Votto contract will probably end badly for the Reds and it deserved to have been mentioned.

[glenn__davis]

20 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

They can sign Manny, I wouldn't view that as a bad thing.  They've got a lot of money coming off the books soon.

Reds have a better farm system.  No Chris Davis, Mark Trumbo on payroll.

I'd trade their situation for ours without having to think too much about it.

Trumbo is signed for 1 more year after this one, at about half the annual salary of Davis.  People need to stop lumping the contracts together.  Trumbo's deal was not a good one and certainly was not a wise use of resources, but that contract is not remotely as harmful as Davis'.  Unlike the Davis contract the Trumbo contract should have zero impact on the direction of the franchise.

[nadecir]

If it's not rock bottom, we can touch the bottom of the hole.  Until we can get out of some of the teams' bad contracts and start a real rebuilding process, I am afraid we will not see the light for the next few years.

[Moose Milligan]

31 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Where did I say I'd rather have Davis or Trumbo?  The Votto contract will probably end badly for the Reds and it deserved to have been mentioned.

When I was talking about trading our future for the Reds future.  You were right to mention the Votto contract but I don't think it's nearly the disaster Davis/Trumbo are.

23 minutes ago, glenn__davis said:

Trumbo is signed for 1 more year after this one, at about half the annual salary of Davis.  People need to stop lumping the contracts together.  Trumbo's deal was not a good one and certainly was not a wise use of resources, but that contract is not remotely as harmful as Davis'.  Unlike the Davis contract the Trumbo contract should have zero impact on the direction of the franchise.

Would you rather have Trumbo's salary next year for Trumbo or would you rather have it go to trying to keep Manny here or maybe Schoop, or someone this team can build around?

Yeah, it's only one more year after this one but for a team with a dwindling attendance record every dollar counts and shouldn't be taken for granted.  

[glenn__davis]

11 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

Would you rather have Trumbo's salary next year for Trumbo or would you rather have it go to trying to keep Manny here or maybe Schoop, or someone this team can build around?

Yeah, it's only one more year after this one but for a team with a dwindling attendance record every dollar counts and shouldn't be taken for granted.  

I just disagree.  The Trumbo contract should in no way hinder a long term extension for Manny, Schoop, or whoever.  And I don't believe it will.  If Manny and/or Schoop leave, I don't believe the Trumbo contract will have had anything to do with that.  You don't make poor long term decisions based on a short-sighted 2-year contract window.

[Moose Milligan]

4 minutes ago, glenn__davis said:

I just disagree.  The Trumbo contract should in no way hinder a long term extension for Manny, Schoop, or whoever.  And I don't believe it will.  If Manny and/or Schoop leave, I don't believe the Trumbo contract will have had anything to do with that.  You don't make poor long term decisions based on a short-sighted 2-year contract window.

It's 8-10 million that could be better spent elsewhere.  Agree or disagree?