Hyde: "I won't manage to the save stat"

[Redskins Rick]

4 minutes ago, Yardball85 said:

Overall, Buck was our best manager of my lifetime (1988 - onward).  That one thing just stuck with me.

He was better than Earl II here too.

It did, it stuck in most of the fans, because most of us, was so into using Britton and not leaving him in the pen.

But, nobody is perfect, not even Earl I.

 

[Redskins Rick]

Just now, LookinUp said:

It was truly a WTF moment. 

Ubaldo was a puzzlement for sure. At times, he had the best assortment of pitches, and would dazzle us, and at times, he struggled like a batting practice pitcher.

If Ubaldo hadnt step it up, when Tilly when down, they dont even make the playoffs.

[LookinUp]

18 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

I'm not so sure I agree with this.  Jim Johnson is a modern reliever with 6.8 K/9 and a 3.76 career FIP.  The O's got consecutive seasons out of him with 50 saves and an ERA under 3.00.  In 2012 he threw 68 innings, 71 games.  In 2013 70 innings, 74 games.  That's not any kind of huge workload in any era, and Buck was good about not warming up someone when they weren't coming in.  Heck, in 2011 he threw 91 innings to 2.67.  And in '08 he had 64 innings of a 2.23.

With hindsight I look back and think, wow, Buck got three really good years out of a pretty ordinary pitcher.

 

I can't say you're wrong on this point as it relates to JJ's ability or overall use as compared to other relievers, but there's also a point where you've got to know your guy. Maybe Buck just assumed it was a dead-arm period and wanted to allow him to work through it, but there were warning signs with JJ, and then similarly Brach, Britton, etc., where I sure wanted them to take some time off. That's easier said than done when your team is competing in July and August, but it wasn't done until it was too late.

[Redskins Rick]

Just now, LookinUp said:

I can't say you're wrong on this point as it relates to JJ's ability or overall use as compared to other relievers, but there's also a point where you've got to know your guy. Maybe Buck just assumed it was a dead-arm period and wanted to allow him to work through it, but there were warning signs with JJ, and then similarly Brach, Britton, etc., where I sure wanted them to take some time off. That's easier said than done when your team is competing in July and August, but it wasn't done until it was too late.

Doesnt help, when the same guys, are telling you, they are fine healthy and let them work through it.

 

[DrungoHazewood]

1 hour ago, Moose Milligan said:

Everyone who's not a manager is a bullpen usage expert.

I'm 100% sure we can find dozens, if not hundreds of posts from 2012 lambasting Buck for his bullpen use.  During the season where the pen was +12 wins in WPA.

[TonySoprano]

2 hours ago, Frobby said:

It will be interesting to see how Hyde uses his best reliever, whoever that turns out to be.    

I'm no doctor, but I do recommend this for after the game during those tough 100 loss seasons.  Get them by the case.

[atomic]

49 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

I'm not so sure I agree with this.  Jim Johnson is a modern reliever with 6.8 K/9 and a 3.76 career FIP.  The O's got consecutive seasons out of him with 50 saves and an ERA under 3.00.  In 2012 he threw 68 innings, 71 games.  In 2013 70 innings, 74 games.  That's not any kind of huge workload in any era, and Buck was good about not warming up someone when they weren't coming in.  Heck, in 2011 he threw 91 innings to 2.67.  And in '08 he had 64 innings of a 2.23.

With hindsight I look back and think, wow, Buck got three really good years out of a pretty ordinary pitcher.

  

If you look at Mariano Rivera's stats he threw that kind of workload every year and it didn't wear him out. Being a closer is tough not only physically but also mentally.  Pitcher's arms wear out that is just what they do.  Jim Johnson is still pitching today.  

Until this year I didn't really see Buck over working guys. But a lot of times this year he would warm up Zach and not bring him in.  My feeling if you warm up a guy coming back from arm issues bring him.  Don't warm him up 3 times during a game and then use him the fourth time you bring him in. 

[LookinUp]

1 minute ago, DrungoHazewood said:

I'm 100% sure we can find dozens, if not hundreds of posts from 2012 lambasting Buck for his bullpen use.  During the season where the pen was +12 wins in WPA.

Going back to my original comment here...

1 hour ago, LookinUp said:

Ironically, Buck's biggest failures and successes came through his management of the bullpen. This team never had the starters, but did manage to get just enough out of them and the hitters in time to turn the game over to Buck's bullpen. Unfortunately, he won those games while burning JJ, Brach, O'Day and Britton with innings and appearances...and of course the Toronto thing.

I stand by it. There's no denying that Buck managed some great bullpens. That wasn't by accident. My only problem is that I personally think he stuck with them too long. He had his approach. It was wonderful, but unsustainable over 162, IMO. I feel that way to this day. If I could go back and advise him, I'd say that guys like Hunter, Matusz (or whomever was around at the time) needed to have more high-leverage use sprinkled in.

It's a marathon. Buck's pace wasn't built for 162+ games, IMO.

 

[Tx Oriole]

2 hours ago, Redskins Rick said:

I dont think he was managing for the save, I think he was trying to manage for a win.

It blewup on him, thats for sure.

Hindsight is always 20-20

It sure is. I am glad Buck is gone but it's easy to get on someone when they are not here to defend themselves. 

[Frobby]

28 minutes ago, LookinUp said:

Going back to my original comment here...

I stand by it. There's no denying that Buck managed some great bullpens. That wasn't by accident. My only problem is that I personally think he stuck with them too long. He had his approach. It was wonderful, but unsustainable over 162, IMO. I feel that way to this day. If I could go back and advise him, I'd say that guys like Hunter, Matusz (or whomever was around at the time) needed to have more high-leverage use sprinkled in.

It's a marathon. Buck's pace wasn't built for 162+ games, IMO.

 

Wow, couldn’t disagree more.   I thought Buck did an excellent job of keeping his relievers fresh enough to be good down the stretch.   Sept./Oct bullpen ERA:

2012: 2.76

2013: 2.57

2014: 3.12

2015: 4.51

2016: 1.70

 

 

[interloper]

Buck was the best bullpen manager the team had seen in decades, certainly of the modern bullpen era. That's what makes his Ubaldo move all the more tough to swallow. 

[Frobby]

Back on topic, I’ve read the full quote in which Hyde said he won’t manage to the save stat.    I don’t interpret him to mean he’s not going to have a designated closer if that’s how things work out.   He’s just saying his decisions will be personnel-driven.    Full quote is in here:   http://www.masnsports.com/school-of-roch/2019/02/hyde-on-changes-in-orioles-camp-roles-and-more.html

[now]

5 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Back on topic, I’ve read the full quote in which Hyde said he won’t manage to the save stat.    I don’t interpret him to mean he’s not going to have a designated closer if that’s how things work out.   He’s just saying his decisions will be personnel-driven.    Full quote is in here:   http://www.masnsports.com/school-of-roch/2019/02/hyde-on-changes-in-orioles-camp-roles-and-more.html

And here's the part of the quote that still, to my mind, prods that wound-that-won't-heal:

Quote

 

“If you have an elite closer, a Mariano Rivera or an Aroldis Chapman-type, then you want them pitching at the end of the game in an ideal world,” Hyde said.... 

“I think the last three outs are different. For whatever reason. I wasn’t a pitcher, so I don’t know exactly, but you hear a lot of them talk about it. For whatever reason it is, it can be different for guys, so that stuff comes into play, as well.”

 

 

[Il BuonO]

1 hour ago, Redskins Rick said:

How well did your fantasy team do?????

I deal in reality.

[LookinUp]

25 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Wow, couldn’t disagree more.   I thought Buck did an excellent job of keeping his relievers fresh enough to be good down the stretch.   Sept./Oct bullpen ERA:

 2012: 2.76

2013: 2.57

2014: 3.12

2015: 4.51

2016: 1.70

 

 

I will consider myself defeated, but would love to know where you get the monthly ERAs for bullpens. I see them on bbref for individuals, but not aggregated by month.