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How Does TB Constantly Get Good Pitching, But We Never Can?

ORIOLE33

By ORIOLE33
in Orioles Talk

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Can_of_corn Hangout Grand Counsel

Can_of_corn

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6 minutes ago, wildbillhiccup said:

I'll still never understand this. I mean, I understand they HAD to move Machado and Britton, but why the sense of urgency with Schoop and Gausman? Why not let the future GM come in and determine how he wanted to handle them? 

I think ownership wanted the payroll cleared.  You trade him in July you don't have to pay him in August and September.

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AnythingO's Major Leaguer

AnythingO's

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2 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

I think ownership wanted the payroll cleared.  You trade him in July you don't have to pay him in August and September.

It is all speculation at this point but I agree with you. I believe Buck was out and Dan thought he was staying and said the right things about international focus, shifting resources from MLB to rebuild the minors. IMO, Dan when shed the payroll he expected to be able to spend that money under the International cap to get all 3 Cubans. He was going to make a splash. I believe that ran counter to the sons wishes so he was let go and they eventually hired Elias. I believe Elias will be able to spend internationally. but not to overspend. He is going to have to sell the brothers on the value of any big ticket signing. Pure speculation and my opinion only.

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atomic Hangout Grand Counsel

atomic

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21 hours ago, Frobby said:

Tampa really has a great development staff on the pitching side.     Let’s give Elias, Mejdal and Holt some time to see what they can do.    Certainly the Astros seemed to be doing a very good job.  

Most of the Astro's pitching was acquired from other teams. Well except Keuchel who they tried repeatedly to get rid of. 

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Frobby Hangout Grand Counsel

Frobby

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38 minutes ago, atomic said:

Most of the Astro's pitching was acquired from other teams. Well except Keuchel who they tried repeatedly to get rid of. 

They drafted and developed McCullers, and also have some excellent arms in the minors now, led by Forrest Whitley who is ranked in the top 5-7 prospects in all the minors.    Their four full season affiliates each led their league in strikeouts last year, some by whopping margins, and were very successful by other measures as well.    If we could replicate that, I’d be very pleased.   

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atomic Hangout Grand Counsel

atomic

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6 minutes ago, Frobby said:

They drafted and developed McCullers, and also have some excellent arms in the minors now, led by Forrest Whitley who is ranked in the top 5-7 prospects in all the minors.    Their four full season affiliates each led their league in strikeouts last year, some by whopping margins, and were very successful by other measures as well.    If we could replicate that, I’d be very pleased.   

And we had Gausman.  Who DD drafted and developed. I would say that is the same. 

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ThomasTomasz Major Leaguer Cup of Coffee

ThomasTomasz

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20 hours ago, drjohnnyfeva said:

The teams that do the development end well, don't want to give up their stash.  Having those young guys under control saves payroll.  Hopefully, under Elias we take a few steps back and get back into all that.  I think we will.

I don't think we were even middle of the pack at either identifying pitching talent or developing it.  Moreso, with starters, I guess than bullpen guys.  We really weren't very good with even position guys either.

Alan Mills did a great job of developing some of the bullpen arms.  Ever since joining the Orioles as a coach, he's had indirect influence (like the Britton transition from starter to reliever) and more direct influence (Givens to reliever from SS.)  It's the reason he is one of two holdovers from Showalter's staff, and was given a job managing the PCL team.  

Some of the rot is being cleared out from the warehouse, and I liked some of the ressignment moves made as well.  I still think we are evaluating some coaches and there are still moves to be made after the season.  Right now, 2019 is strictly evaluational for our players at all levels, and minor league coaches. 

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LookinUp Hangout Grand Counsel

LookinUp

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1 hour ago, atomic said:

And we had Gausman.  Who DD drafted and developed. I would say that is the same. 

You're being obtuse. Gausman was never as good for us as he was expected to be, and he wasn't as good as Whitley is expected to be. He was highest rated when we drafted him, whereas Whitley's star has risen during the Astros' oversight. And that doesn't even mention the many other arms they have in-house and in the minors who are striking guys out at break-neck paces. 

Meanwhile, while we're all correctly lamenting that the O's haven't been able to draft and develop talent, it's fair to point out that pretty much no other teams have been able to do it like the Rays. The Dodgers come to mind I guess, along with the Astros. The Rays are probably the best at it. I shudder to think what they'd do with equal financial resources.

 

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atomic Hangout Grand Counsel

atomic

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32 minutes ago, LookinUp said:

You're being obtuse. Gausman was never as good for us as he was expected to be, and he wasn't as good as Whitley is expected to be. He was highest rated when we drafted him, whereas Whitley's star has risen during the Astros' oversight. And that doesn't even mention the many other arms they have in-house and in the minors who are striking guys out at break-neck paces. 

 Meanwhile, while we're all correctly lamenting that the O's haven't been able to draft and develop talent, it's fair to point out that pretty much no other teams have been able to do it like the Rays. The Dodgers come to mind I guess, along with the Astros. The Rays are probably the best at it. I shudder to think what they'd do with equal financial resources.

  

Gausman was at least as good as McCullers. I am not sure why you are counting on guys being in AA as being developed.   Matusz was out of this world in AA.  Arrieta was pretty darn good in AA for the Orioles as well. If you are just pulling stuff out of thin air there is no reason to even post. 

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Frobby Hangout Grand Counsel

Frobby

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1 hour ago, atomic said:

Gausman was at least as good as McCullers. I am not sure why you are counting on guys being in AA as being developed.   Matusz was out of this world in AA.  Arrieta was pretty darn good in AA for the Orioles as well. If you are just pulling stuff out of thin air there is no reason to even post. 

I think your point about not claiming a development success based on AA stats is fair enough.   I don’t think comparing Gausman (no. 4 overall pick out of college) with McCullers (no. 41 pick out of high school) is really apples to apples.   Even so, McCullers is 3 years younger and has a better ERA+, FIP and K rate.    He hasn’t pitched as many innings and is having TJ surgery now, but I consider him to have been better developed than Gausman by a pretty good margin.  

Also, you don’t get to write off Keuchel by saying the Astros wanted to trade him.   They still developed him very well.

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TheOtherRipken Major Leaguer Cup of Coffee

TheOtherRipken

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6 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

I think ownership wanted the payroll cleared.  You trade him in July you don't have to pay him in August and September.

A better non-lame duck GM with more time to work with would have done a heck of a better job with the Gausman trade than DD did. That was atrocious and indefensible in my opinion.

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atomic Hangout Grand Counsel

atomic

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1 hour ago, TheOtherRipken said:

A better non-lame duck GM with more time to work with would have done a heck of a better job with the Gausman trade than DD did. That was atrocious and indefensible in my opinion.

I think that trade was purely ownership telling DD to put ODays salary into the trade.  I think the one we can blame DD on is the Britton trade.

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Redskins Rick Hangout Grand Counsel

Redskins Rick

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21 hours ago, wildbillhiccup said:

Are you being sarcastic? Because he was incredible for them after the trade and he just threw a 7 inning shut out in his first start of the season. 

He tripped up a few starts at the end of the season during their stretch run, and I believe his post season results was meh

 

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