Just wondering about non-pitchers pitching

[Carllamy]

I'm wondering if this season's O's can get a record for futility. By my memory, which could be wrong, 4 times now this year we've used a non-pitcher as a relief pitcher in a game. And I'm not complaining about that. It was smart to do so every time it happened.

But, suppose we don't even lose as many games as last year (that's a possibility, we are ahead of last year's win pace right now) so that we don't get close to being "the worst team ever".

Is it still possible for us to get a major league record for most appearances by a position player as a pitcher? Is that a stat somewhere?

Baseball reference keep stats on non-pitchers who have appeared in games as pitchers. So that stat is kept.

But, that stat is hard stat to define well. Baseball reference mentions the flaw in how they define their non-pitchers pitching stat. They choose players to appear on the list who have at least 5 times as many games not pitching as pitching, and admit that by their own definition Babe Ruth makes the list even though he was definitely a pitcher at one point.

Could we end up being able to see this team as "the worst" by having the most times in MLB history that a non-pitcher has come in to pitch? Is that a stat somewhere?

[Roll Tide]

2 minutes ago, Carllamy said:

I'm wondering if this season's O's can get a record for futility. By my memory, which could be wrong, 4 times now this year we've used a non-pitcher as a relief pitcher in a game. And I'm not complaining about that. It was smart to do so every time it happened.

But, suppose we don't even lose as many games as last year (that's a possibility, we are ahead of last year's win pace right now) so that we don't get close to being "the worst team ever".

Is it still possible for us to get a major league record for most appearances by a position player as a pitcher? Is that a stat somewhere?

Baseball reference keep stats on non-pitchers who have appeared in games as pitchers. So that stat is kept.

But, that stat is hard stat to define well. Baseball reference mentions the flaw in how they define their non-pitchers pitching stat. They choose players to appear on the list who have at least 5 times as many games not pitching as pitching, and admit that by their own definition Babe Ruth makes the list even though he was definitely a pitcher at one point.

Could we end up being able to see this team as "the worst" by having the most times in MLB history that a non-pitcher has come in to pitch? Is that a stat somewhere?

We are actually playing fairly well lately playing around.500 ball. The Tigers are in a nose dive and are trending down. I don't think we need to worry about being the worst unless the Tigers start to play better and we belly flop again.

[Frobby]

We’ve done it five times — Wilkerson twice, and Davis, Alberto and Sucre once each.    I don’t know what the major league record is, but that’s certainly an Orioles record so far as I can remember.   

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, Frobby said:

We’ve done it five times — Wilkerson twice, and Davis, Alberto and Sucre once each.    I don’t know what the major league record is, but that’s certainly an Orioles record so far as I can remember.   

My guess is that Drungo is going to chime in with some team in the 1880's that did it thirty times.

[mdbdotcom]

Maybe there should be a rule that when a position player pitches, the DH is eliminated for that team for the rest of the game.

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, mdbdotcom said:

Maybe there should be a rule that when a position player pitches, the DH is eliminated for that team for the rest of the game.

So a rule that penalizes the American league and not the National league?

[mdbdotcom]

6 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

So a rule that penalizes the American league and not the National league?

No, in the National League they would have to put a pitcher in the outfield.

[makoman]

3 minutes ago, mdbdotcom said:

Maybe there should be a rule that when a position player pitches, the DH is eliminated for that team for the rest of the game.

Whenever it happens the game is already out of hand, so I don't see a need.

Looks like the Rays did it 5 times last year and the Cubs 6 times. Didn't find any others over 5, but I didn't see an obvious way to search so I didn't look much. Just figured Maddon and the Rays think outside the box.

[DrungoHazewood]

3 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

My guess is that Drungo is going to chime in with some team in the 1880's that did it thirty times.

It'll all depend on how you frame the parameters of the question.  In the early years there was much less of a distinction between pitchers and position players.  Guy Hecker won the AA batting title in 1886 in a year where he pitched in 49 games, played first 22 times, and had another 17 appearances in the outfield.  As far as I know he's the only person to have a 50-win season on the mound and a batting title on his resume.

The Orioles had Kid Gleason for a while.  He won 138 games as a pitcher.  In '94 he hurt his arm and transitioned to second base where he played another 12 or 13 years before becoming a manager.

In that kind of context, and with roster that were sometimes as small as a dozen, many or most players occasionally pitched.  From 1871-99 there were 22 players who played 20+ games at both outfield and pitcher in a single season, mostly short schedules.

So... how do you define position player pitching?  Baseball reference has a page that lists this, using I think six times as many field position appearances as pitcher, but even that skirts grey areas like Babe Ruth.  The bb-ref page is some kind of query with superuser rights, I don't know how to replicate that with the Play Index, so it's hard to figure out which team did this the most in one season. Otherwise I'd run the query from 1900-present, or WWII-present when two-way players and position switchers have been less common.  I'll see what I can come up with...

[DrungoHazewood]

14 minutes ago, mdbdotcom said:

Maybe there should be a rule that when a position player pitches, the DH is eliminated for that team for the rest of the game.

That already happens if you use a position player who's already in the game.  The Orioles lost the DH in the Chris Davis Game.

For your rule to be effective you'd have to establish definitions and assignments for who is a pitcher and who is a position player, which currently doesn't formally exist.  For example, Hanser Alberto is a baseball player who usually plays a position other than pitcher.

[Frobby]

10 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

My guess is that Drungo is going to chime in with some team in the 1880's that did it thirty times.

Begs the question, when is a position player not just a position player?    For example, in 1956, utility infielder Johnny O’Brien pitched 8 times in relief, while playing 54 games in the field.  By the time he made his first pitching appearance, he’d played in more than 200 games as an infielder in his career, and he didn’t pitch at all until June 27.    So was he a position player being used as a pitcher?

The next year he pitched 16 games, including one start, while being used in the field in only ten games.    

[UpstateNYfan]

Pitching has become too specialized...one batter, one inning, match ups, etc. It is not hard to run out of pitchers. My guess is that the vast majority of MLB players pitched at least through HS and many excelled at it. I have no problem with using a position player on the mound, or reverse. Integrity of the game?? Look at NFL once a team clinches a playoff spot, giving regulars a rest while facing a team in a race for a spot. NBA and NHL is basically an exhibition season until crunch time.

[DrungoHazewood]

4 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Begs the question, when is a position player not just a position player?    For example, in 1956, utility infielder Johnny O’Brien pitched 8 times in relief, while playing 54 games in the field.  By the time he made his first pitching appearance, he’d played in more than 200 games as an infielder in his career, and he didn’t pitch at all until June 27.    So was he a position player being used as a pitcher?

The next year he pitched 16 games, including one start, while being used in the field in only ten games.    

It's hard to put together a query for "most times a guy pitched in a season who obviously wasn't really a pitcher and wasn't transitioning or experimenting with pitching".  

How do you classify Dick Hall in '55 and '56?  What about Brooks Kieschnick in '03? Cy Seymour in 1902?  Or the Babe when he randomly pitched a game or two in 1920, '21, '30 and '33?  Or the Hondo Hurricane?

[DrungoHazewood]

8 minutes ago, UpstateNYfan said:

Pitching has become too specialized...one batter, one inning, match ups, etc. It is not hard to run out of pitchers. My guess is that the vast majority of MLB players pitched at least through HS and many excelled at it. I have no problem with using a position player on the mound, or reverse. Integrity of the game?? Look at NFL once a team clinches a playoff spot, giving regulars a rest while facing a team in a race for a spot. NBA and NHL is basically an exhibition season until crunch time.

What's more rare is a pitcher playing a field position.  Who is the last Oriole pitcher to play the field?  I really don't know.  Has it ever happened for the modern franchise?  

And no, the Earl Weaver attempt to circumvent the rules by listing a pitcher as the starting DH then pinch hitting for him before he comes to the plate doesn't count.

[LookinUp]

4 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

What's more rare is a pitcher playing a field position.  Who is the last Oriole pitcher to play the field?  I really don't know.  Has it ever happened for the modern franchise?  

Didn't the mid-80's Cardinals rotate lefties and righties between LF and P? I have a vague recollection, but I was pretty young.