Is Sisco Toast?

[Redskins Rick]

24 minutes ago, Frobby said:

There’s definitely a lot of guys drafted at SS who end up being major leaguers at other positions.    I’m not sure how true that is at catcher.  

Harper was a catcher before being drafted, and the Nats drafted him, with the intent of having him in the OF.

Possey played a ton of 1st a few years ago and now back to mainly catching.

I think you are spot on, mostly catchers are catchers until they cant play there anymore, like Surhoff and Mauer.

 

 

[DrungoHazewood]

1 hour ago, Frobby said:

There’s definitely a lot of guys drafted at SS who end up being major leaguers at other positions.    I’m not sure how true that is at catcher.  

Jeff Fiorentino was listed as a catcher when he signed.  Which gives him something in common with Dale Murphy, Carlos Delgado, and Nerio Rodriguez.

[Frobby]

1 minute ago, DrungoHazewood said:

Jeff Fiorentino was listed as a catcher when he signed.  Which gives him something in common with Dale Murphy, Carlos Delgado, and Nerio Rodriguez.

Dale Murphy did at least play 85 games at C in the majors and 370 in the minors before they gave up on him.   So, I don’t see him as a guy who was drafted with the plan that he wouldn’t be a catcher.    It just worked out that way.   Delgado caught 416 games in the minors but only 2 partial games in the majors.   Rodriguez caught 212 minor league games before he was converted to a pitcher; he never caught in the majors.   

Then there are guys like Craig Biggio, who caught 400+ games in the majors but got converted to 2B pretty early on in his career.    

[Camden_yardbird]

On 8/31/2019 at 10:28 PM, Aristotelian said:

Catcher is one position you just can't play if you have the yips. Hate to give up on a #2 draft pick but I think he is holding back the rebuild.

He hit a homer and still managed to singehandedly lose a winnable game for us.

Sorry to vent but I have seen enough.

I frequently give up on top prospects after less than 400 ABs...

[Redskins Rick]

22 hours ago, Frobby said:

Dale Murphy did at least play 85 games at C in the majors and 370 in the minors before they gave up on him.   So, I don’t see him as a guy who was drafted with the plan that he wouldn’t be a catcher.    It just worked out that way.   Delgado caught 416 games in the minors but only 2 partial games in the majors.   Rodriguez caught 212 minor league games before he was converted to a pitcher; he never caught in the majors.   

Then there are guys like Craig Biggio, who caught 400+ games in the majors but got converted to 2B pretty early on in his career.    

I think there was a few OH posters who questioned the selection of Sisco as a catcher. His bat wasn't going to be the issue.

Weather he has the skillset to perform at a demanding position.

[Moose Milligan]

8 minutes ago, Camden_yardbird said:

I frequently give up on top prospects after less than 400 ABs...

Sisco was a top prospect, this is true.  But he wasn't a Vlad Jr. type.  And I'm not saying that I expect all of our prospects to be considered as elite as Vlad Jr, or Acuna or a top 5 type but...there's a difference between saying Vlad Jr is a top prospect and Sisco is a top prospect.  

It's like if I purchased an '88 BMW with 200k miles off Craigslist for $2,000.  I can say I drive a BMW and it's not a lie.  It's not an exaggeration.  But it's very different than someone who just drove a new BMW off the lot today.  

[interloper]

18 minutes ago, Camden_yardbird said:

I frequently give up on top prospects after less than 400 ABs...

I know you're being snarky here, but I would call Sisco a former top prospect. He might turn into an average MLer yet, but he's no top prospect, anyone with eyeballs can see that. He's - at best - intriguing. But he's 24 and can't really play his primary position that well. 

[Redskins Rick]

32 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

Sisco was a top prospect, this is true.  But he wasn't a Vlad Jr. type.  And I'm not saying that I expect all of our prospects to be considered as elite as Vlad Jr, or Acuna or a top 5 type but...there's a difference between saying Vlad Jr is a top prospect and Sisco is a top prospect.  

It's like if I purchased an '88 BMW with 200k miles off Craigslist for $2,000.  I can say I drive a BMW and it's not a lie.  It's not an exaggeration.  But it's very different than someone who just drove a new BMW off the lot today.  

Sisco was a 2nd rounder, so I don't think, its unrealistic to have expected him to be at least a decent daily player, not a stud, but a serviable daily guy.

Clearly, our draft team in place at that time, made the round selection.

[Frobby]

16 minutes ago, Redskins Rick said:

Sisco was a 2nd rounder, so I don't think, its unrealistic to have expected him to be at least a decent daily player, not a stud, but a serviable daily guy.

I’d say more like hoped than expected.    Of the 53 second round picks we’ve made, only 20 ever played a day in the majors.  Only 9 played more major league games than Sisco already has.    We’ve made a few great picks there (Ripken, Baylor, Rhodes), but not so many that you “expect” an everyday player when you make your second round pick.

Here’s the list:  https://www.baseball-reference.com/draft/?team_ID=BAL&draft_round=2&draft_type=junreg&query_type=franch_round

[Ruzious]

On 9/3/2019 at 3:01 PM, DrungoHazewood said:

Jeff Fiorentino was listed as a catcher when he signed.  Which gives him something in common with Dale Murphy, Carlos Delgado, and Nerio Rodriguez.

I remember Murphy's debut as a catcher with Atlanta.  Some of his throws to 2nd base were almost catchable by the centerfielder.  They must have figured he was trying to tell them something, so they said, hey let's move this kid to centerfield.  And the rest is history - multi GG's and 2 MVP awards later.  

[Redskins Rick]

6 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I’d say more like hoped than expected.    Of the 53 second round picks we’ve made, only 20 ever played a day in the majors.  Only 9 played more major league games than Sisco already has.    We’ve made a few great picks there (Ripken, Baylor, Rhodes), but not so many that you “expect” an everyday player when you make your second round pick.

Here’s the list:  https://www.baseball-reference.com/draft/?team_ID=BAL&draft_round=2&draft_type=junreg&query_type=franch_round

Great ref site thanks.

I scrolled through some of the other teams.

Guess, I was out of wrack for expecting more from a 2nd rounder.

Thanks

 

[jarman86]

1 hour ago, Redskins Rick said:

I think there was a few OH posters who questioned the selection of Sisco as a catcher. His bat wasn't going to be the issue.

Weather he has the skillset to perform at a demanding position.

I was definitely one who was skeptical on Chance being drafted as a catcher because if I remember correctly, he hadn't played catcher before.  Since he got drafted, I've always seen him as an intriguing prospect.  Can't say you hear of too many players being drafted at catcher having rarely played there.  Too difficult a position imo.  Out of curiosity, wasn't Alvie Shepherd drafted in the first round never having played organized ball or something?  I was a kid when he got drafted and vaguely remembering reading something like that.  Chris Smith was similar in that he was never a pitcher before we drafted him too, I think.  I get projectability, but I'm not a fan of projects when you are a poor team in the early rounds.  Astros have put them in a small window to experiment, but I don't think we were really in that position....ever....to experiment.

[DrungoHazewood]

11 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I’d say more like hoped than expected.    Of the 53 second round picks we’ve made, only 20 ever played a day in the majors.  Only 9 played more major league games than Sisco already has.    We’ve made a few great picks there (Ripken, Baylor, Rhodes), but not so many that you “expect” an everyday player when you make your second round pick.

Here’s the list:  https://www.baseball-reference.com/draft/?team_ID=BAL&draft_round=2&draft_type=junreg&query_type=franch_round

There have been 54 drafts.  Sisco was the #61 overall pick.  He's 13th in MLB games played among #61 overall picks.  He's 18th in rWAR.  

Among players drafted #58-63 there have been 25 who've ended up with 10+ win careers.  That's out of 324 picks, so that works out to 8%. Roughly 240 of the 324 had zero or fewer rWAR in their entire careers.  And something approaching 50% of the 324 never appeared in the majors.

The median player taken around Sisco's spot appears briefly in the majors and has a below-replacement career.  So, as I've said before, to be an marginally acceptable draft pick you have to be way above average.  Everyone is disappointed with 80+% of all picks.

[Ruzious]

11 minutes ago, Ruzious said:

I remember Murphy's debut as a catcher with Atlanta.  Some of his throws to 2nd base were almost catchable by the centerfielder.  They must have figured he was trying to tell them something, so they said, hey let's move this kid to centerfield.  And the rest is history - multi GG's and 2 MVP awards later.  

Btw, one of the catchers Atlanta used when Murphy failed was young Biff Pocoroba - along with former Oriole (included in the Dave Johnson trade) Earl Williams.  

[Can_of_corn]

3 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

There have been 54 drafts.  Sisco was the #61 overall pick.  He's 13th in MLB games played among #61 overall picks.  He's 18th in rWAR.  

Among players drafted #58-63 there have been 25 who've ended up with 10+ win careers.  That's out of 324 picks, so that works out to 8%. Roughly 240 of the 324 had zero or fewer rWAR in their entire careers.  And something approaching 50% of the 324 never appeared in the majors.

The median player taken around Sisco's spot appears briefly in the majors and has a below-replacement career.  So, as I've said before, to be an marginally acceptable draft pick you have to be way above average.  Everyone is disappointed with 80+% of all picks.

I feel like we had a similar discussion about Reimold back in the day.