The "no matter what else they do" thread

[Sports Guy]

1) Then who will be the leadoff hitter?

Markakis

And it creates another hole in the infield.

Not if you get a second baseman in one of the trades which is very possible.

3) Huff is fairly versatile (1st, 3rd, DH) and provides some pop Mora has a no trade clause and Ramon's value is pretty low.

Thanks for stating the obvious.

) Liz should get a little more time. His main problem is getting his body to go toward home when he delivers the ball. When it does he has much better control. When it falls toward first, he walks too many people.

Liz has no future in the rotation. You are delaying the inevitable by keeping him there...Let him get used to the pen and he may very well end up dominating.

6) The pitchers seem to be developing fairly well this year. If it ain't broke.....

They are? I disagree...Its been ok but not great....Minnesota is the model franchise to follow.

7) Something has to be done. The FA SS's aren't anything to write home about. Maybe a Minor League FA. Or Rule 5. Or Eckstein on a 2 yr deal

Horrible!!!!

[Peace21]

Can we please address the rotation this offseason? I rather see the Orioles go after top FA starters than Teixeria.

[JTrea81]

Not if you get a second baseman in one of the trades which is very possible.

What second base prospect or young MLer is some team going to give up for anything we have to trade?

My guess is that you are thinking Donald from Philly and DeJesus Jr. from the Dodgers.

If White stays on, forget about DeJesus, and there's nothing we can trade Philly that would net Donald.

[Sports Guy]

What second base prospect or young MLer is some team going to give up for anything we have to trade?

My guess is that you are thinking Donald from Philly and DeJesus Jr. from the Dodgers.

If White stays on, forget about DeJesus, and there's nothing we can trade Philly that would net Donald.

There are plenty of guys out there and if BRob goes to the Dodgers, DeJesus is likely in the deal because it sounds like his future is at second base.

[Satyr3206]

Markakis has the OBP to bat leadoff but he isn't a true threat to steal, and I don't think Trembley would want to bat a power guy at leadoff.

Sure you might get a 2nd baseman in a trade. And then you have 2 holes up the middle.

I stated the obvious because you seem to think trading those three will be easy. If it was they would already be gone.

I'm not saying Liz is the next Pedro but a) we have a shortage of starters b)he hasn't been starting in the ML for that long and c)who's going to start in his place?

Simply because Minnesota is developing pitchers doesn't mean someone from their orginazation will come here. And the Minor League staffs have done much better than OK this year. Either look at the stats or read Baseball America.

So what's the better option than Eckstein?

Furcal has a bad back.

Hardy will cost to much in a trade.

Greene is going downhill fast.

Renteria is terrible when he plays in the American League.

The rest of the free agents are below average at best.

[Satyr3206]

The Angels and D'backs are trying to get Eckstein. These 2 teams know a little about scouting so he must not be that bad. It's on Fox if you want to read the article.

[Sports Guy]

The Angels and D'backs are trying to get Eckstein. These 2 teams know a little about scouting so he must not be that bad. It's on Fox if you want to read the article.

I could care less what those teams want.

Eckstein is terrible.

And I am not sure they want to sign Eck for 2 years...Probably looking to get him for right now.

[JimDH]

I could care less what those teams want.

Eckstein is terrible.

And I am not sure they want to sign Eck for 2 years...Probably looking to get him for right now.

Eckstein is terrible? Do you mean that in a good way or a bad way? To me, other then poor XBase ability, the only thing terrible I see is how terribly ordinary he is.

[Sports Guy]

Eckstein is terrible? Do you mean that in a good way or a bad way? To me, other then poor XBase ability, the only thing terrible I see is how terribly ordinary he is.

Huh? How can terrible be any way other than bad?

[LookinUp]

Can we please address the rotation this offseason? I rather see the Orioles go after top FA starters than Teixeria.

It's amazing to me that more people don't get this fundamental need in baseball. Counting on all of our young pitching before 2011 is foolish. We need to shore up the rotation to compete.

[Sports Guy]

It's amazing to me that more people don't get this fundamental need in baseball. Counting on all of our young pitching before 2011 is foolish. We need to shore up the rotation to compete.

Yes we do but more than Tex?

The bottom line is when looking at the future of this organization, people on here seem to only look at 2009.

Now, don't get me wrong...Signing 2 pitchers is something I think they should do...One being Burnett or Sheets and the other a pitcher on a one year deal who can eat innings.

However, signing 2 pitchers for 2009 doesn't trump the long term needs we have with the IF and with someone with a lot of power.

Tex solves both of those(well, not the entire IF but you get the point). He is a much larger need for us over the next 5 years.

We know our pitching is our strength in the minor leagues. Of course, we will be lucky to get 2 or 3 guys out of there to really step up for us but nonetheless, we should have enough.

We have nothing in terms of positional guys outside of Wieters and Reimold who are ready to help anytime soon.

Tex is extremely important to this team but his importance doesn't really start until 2010.

I remember back when we almost signed Vlad and Beattie deemed Vladdy a "luxury"...Where would this organization be today had we signed that luxury?

[btownoriole]

It's amazing to me that more people don't get this fundamental need in baseball. Counting on all of our young pitching before 2011 is foolish. We need to shore up the rotation to compete.

I think people get it but the concern is the risk it entails and the amount of quality pitching the O's need to truly compete.

How many teams in the last 30 years with truly horrific pitching have become a championship team by signing free agent pitchers? Maybe the '97 Marlins (Brown, Fernadez, & Leiter) and the '01 D-backs (Randy Johnson). (Honestly those teams didn't have pitching as bad as the O's this year.) The '97 Marlins broke the bank so badly that they blew up the team immediately. The '01 D-backs had been able to sign Randy Johnson 2 years earlier because he wanted to come home. Once they had him in the fold they were able to trade for Schilling. And BTW, neither of those teams had the 2 biggest payrolls in their division to compete with. And neither team could sustain it, as both suffered 105+ loss seasons within 3 years.

Now think about the teams that have dramatic turnarounds & how they've done it:

• 1991 Twins: 1 veteran FA (Jack Morris) & maturation of young pitching (Erickson & Tapani)
• 1991 Atlanta Braves - Maturation of Glavine, Smoltz, & Avery. (Signed Maddux before '93 season once Smoltz & Glavine were established.)
• 2006 Detroit Tigers: signed veteran Kenny Rogers, maturation/development of Verlander & Bonderman
• 2008 Tampa Bay Rays: Development/maturation of Shields, Kazmir, Jackson, Sonnanstein; acquisition of Garza
• 2003 Florida Marlins: Maturation/development of Beckett, Penny, Willis & Pavano

I haven't included the A's of the early 2000's because they had a more steady improvement but they went from an improving young team to a championship team once Hudson, Mulder, & Zito developed.

[Satyr3206]

I think people get it but the concern is the risk it entails and the amount of quality pitching the O's need to truly compete.

How many teams in the last 30 years with truly horrific pitching have become a championship team by signing free agent pitchers? Maybe the '97 Marlins (Brown, Fernadez, & Leiter) and the '01 D-backs (Randy Johnson). (Honestly those teams didn't have pitching as bad as the O's this year.) The '97 Marlins broke the bank so badly that they blew up the team immediately. The '01 D-backs had been able to sign Randy Johnson 2 years earlier because he wanted to come home. Once they had him in the fold they were able to trade for Schilling. And BTW, neither of those teams had the 2 biggest payrolls in their division to compete with. And neither team could sustain it, as both suffered 105+ loss seasons within 3 years.

Now think about the teams that have dramatic turnarounds & how they've done it:

• 1991 Twins: 1 veteran FA (Jack Morris) & maturation of young pitching (Erickson & Tapani)
• 1991 Atlanta Braves - Maturation of Glavine, Smoltz, & Avery. (Signed Maddux before '93 season once Smoltz & Glavine were established.)
• 2006 Detroit Tigers: signed veteran Kenny Rogers, maturation/development of Verlander & Bonderman
• 2008 Tampa Bay Rays: Development/maturation of Shields, Kazmir, Jackson, Sonnanstein; acquisition of Garza
• 2003 Florida Marlins: Maturation/development of Beckett, Penny, Willis & Pavano

I haven't included the A's of the early 2000's because they had a more steady improvement but they went from an improving young team to a championship team once Hudson, Mulder, & Zito developed.

Excellent post. I could see signing one or two FA Pitchers but going after Sheets or Sabathia would be lunacy.

[RLB29]

The concept of this thread is designed to say, no matter what the Orioles do this offseason(for example, sign Tex), they should do...?

BTW, obvious things like keep improving on Int'l scouting don't need to be mentioned IMO.

My answers:

1) Trade BRob

2) Extend Nick long term

3) Look to trade Huff, Mora and Ramon

4) Move Liz to the pen

5) Trade DCab or move him to the pen

6) Bring in a high ranking MiL pitching coordinator from the Twins to oversee the pitching in the minors

7) Get outside help for SS...but not a FA(goes with #1 or #3?)

Some others may come to me but this is off the top of my head.

1) Do you expect the player(s) that you get back for Roberts to provide the same offensive (or defensive) output that Roberts' provides? If not, what have you gained in trading Roberts except getting younger?

2) Should have already been done.

3) Keep Mora as he can 'fill in' until Snyder/Rowell/Kolodny arrive; have Ramon as the DH/backup catcher (if his ego will let him) if you trade Huff. If Huff isn't traded, Ramon and Weiters can share the job until the trade deadline and then trade/dump Ramon.

If you trade Huff and get a SS, how do you replace the offense that you lose in trading Huff and Roberts? I don't see how trading these two is an upgrade other than getting younger and filling the SS hole.

4) Keep Liz in the rotation as a 'fill in' until we switch to the Bowie rotation in '10. If we move Liz to the pen, we need 2 FA pitchers to take his and Cabrera's places.

5) Agree.

6) OK, but why would they want to come here?

With MacPhail being so deliberate, it is going to be a very interesting off season with many good discussions like this.

[El Gordo]

Yes we do but more than Tex?

The bottom line is when looking at the future of this organization, people on here seem to only look at 2009.

Now, don't get me wrong...Signing 2 pitchers is something I think they should do...One being Burnett or Sheets and the other a pitcher on a one year deal who can eat innings.

However, signing 2 pitchers for 2009 doesn't trump the long term needs we have with the IF and with someone with a lot of power.

Tex solves both of those(well, not the entire IF but you get the point). He is a much larger need for us over the next 5 years.

We know our pitching is our strength in the minor leagues. Of course, we will be lucky to get 2 or 3 guys out of there to really step up for us but nonetheless, we should have enough.

We have nothing in terms of positional guys outside of Wieters and Reimold who are ready to help anytime soon.

Tex is extremely important to this team but his importance doesn't really start until 2010.

I remember back when we almost signed Vlad and Beattie deemed Vladdy a "luxury"...Where would this organization be today had we signed that luxury?

About the same position as we are now, given the crappy pitching we have had since then. A single position player no matter how great simply doesn't make up for that.