Tracking Ex Oriole Thread

[Frobby]

I’m not an Athletic subscriber, but this certainly looks interesting:

https://theathletic.com/920093/2019/04/11/adam-jones-on-manny-machados-rep-as-a-dirty-player-race-is-one-hundred-percent-a-factor/

[TonySoprano]

51 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I’m not an Athletic subscriber, but this certainly looks interesting:

https://theathletic.com/920093/2019/04/11/adam-jones-on-manny-machados-rep-as-a-dirty-player-race-is-one-hundred-percent-a-factor/

 Manny's rep is self-inflicted, no need to read more into than that.  A headline which reads "Adam Jones on Manny Machado’s rep as a dirty player: Race is ‘one hundred percent’ a factor" is also a "way to get clicks." 

Quote

What did you make about the reaction to that play with Manny in San Diego, when he dropped his bat near John Ryan Murphy’s feet on that foul pop?

Everyone has an opinion on everybody, except themselves. I didn’t see it initially. I saw it after everything. I don’t know. I really don’t have an opinion on it. Let’s leave it to Twitter! Let’s leave it to all the people who do everything on the book. They live the greatest kosher life possible.

Quote

Fairly or unfairly, he’s gained a reputation as being a dirty player. What’s your reaction to that?

I’ve been with the guy every day in the bigs besides the last six months. I don’t see him as a dirty player. I see him as a player who plays the game hard. I see him as a guy who plays the game his way, also. People label everything. Everyone has an opinion while living the perfect kosher life.

 

Quote

This game long has had a bad history of using specific words to describe white players and other words to describe non-white players. Do you think Manny’s reputation would be different if he were white?

One hundred percent. One hundred percent. One hundred percent. We know that, because some players are called grinders and other players are called something else. Some players are called pouting, other players are called passionate. It’s all about how you word it. My wife’s a lawyer. She told me a long time ago that everything is about how you word it. And how you word it is important. It’s like how you write a headline — most people nowadays see the headline and react off the headline. They don’t care about the thousands of words you guys put into the actual article. They just care about the headline. We just want clicks. I get it. Trust me, it drives money, it’s the market. I completely understand it. It sucks that certain words are used to describe certain players and certain words are used to describe others.

 

[CallMeBrooksie]

43 minutes ago, TonySoprano said:

 Manny's rep is self-inflicted, no need to read more into than that.  A headline which reads "Adam Jones on Manny Machado’s rep as a dirty player: Race is ‘one hundred percent’ a factor" is also a "way to get clicks." 

 

I don't think the headline was misleading or dishonest. I think it's fair to consider and discuss what role race plays in the rhetoric used to describe minorities in the USA, just as Adam did. He didn't say that Manny is a squeaky clean player, but when asked, he opined that race definitely plays a factor in the rhetoric that gets tossed around. It's not a far-fetched statement to make.

[OsFanSinceThe80s]

 

[Frobby]

On 4/10/2019 at 7:25 AM, DrungoHazewood said:

If Harold Baines is the new standard they're going to have to induct about 200 players in fairly short order.  There are players (such as Bobby Grich) who have nearly twice Baines' value and fell off the ballot in a year or two and have never been seriously considered in the 20 years since.

There is no standard.  The BBWAA kind of has a loose standard, but the various Committees do whatever the heck they want, no matter how inconsistent with past results.

This is kind of random but I was looking at the list of players Nick Markakis was likely to pass on the all time hit list this year, and one of them was Gary Gaetti.    Career OPS+ of 97 but he managed to stick in the bigs for 20 years and produce 42.1 rWAR.    Won 4 Gold Gloves, too.    Another member of the Hall of the Very Good.

[Moose Milligan]

Pat Connaughton playing for the Bucks in the first round of the NBA playoffs.

[Uli2001]

On 4/12/2019 at 6:40 AM, DrungoHazewood said:

What hate?  Harold Baines is an awesome guy, and I loved watching him on the O's.  Eastern Shore native.  What's not to like?

But that doesn't change the fact that his career was about 75% as valuable as John Olerud's.  Baines will be looked at in 20 years as a good dude who benefited from yet another bizarre and confused vote of an ill-conceived and obviously biased Veteran's Committee. Unfortunately that's basically how he's looked at today.

Here's an exercise: lay out a convincing case that Baines deserves induction and Keith Hernandez doesn't.  Baines basically didn't play the field the last 15 years of his career.  Hernandez won 11 gold gloves, and that's validated by modern metrics as he's a +117 run fielder.  Baines, mostly not having any fielding responsibility, led the league in slugging once.  That was his only league-leading mark in anything.  Hernandez led the league in runs twice, doubles, walks, batting average, and OBP.  Hernandez had a 128 OPS+, Baines 121. Hernandez played on two World Series champs, Baines none.  Hernandez won an MVP award, Baines never finished higher than 9th.  Hernandez out-WARs Baines 60-38.

Clearly, unambiguously, Hernandez was a vastly superior player.  But he peaked out at 10% of the BBWAA vote and hasn't been able to convince a committee of his value.  Baines peaked out at 6%, but got a committee with a number of his former managers, GMs, and peers to vote him in.

And that's just one example.  There are literally over 200 position players with more than 38 rWAR who are not in the Hall of Fame.

"Hate" was used in the internet slang sense. To me, the fact that Baines was voted in over many players with larger WAR appears to discredit WAR not Baines.

[sportsfan8703]

On 4/14/2019 at 1:03 AM, OsFanSinceThe80s said:

I know Davies was only in the minor league system at the time, but I didn’t like the Parra trade from day one.

 

I always was a Davies fan. At the time, Wright and Wilson were on the team and probably viewed with higher ceilings by DD.  So he was a spare part. 

We would have likely traded him last trade deadline, or we’d be talking about trading him in a few months. You can “butterfly effect” the path of the franchise all you want, but we probably end up back in this same thread in August following him. We’d just be 2 top 30 org prospects richer. 

[POR]

4 hours ago, Uli2001 said:

"Hate" was used in the internet slang sense. To me, the fact that Baines was voted in over many players with larger WAR appears to discredit WAR not Baines.

In 5 years on  the hall of fame ballot where the requirement to get into the hall of fame is 75%, Baines' highest showing was 6.1%.

Baines getting in the hall was an example of having friends in the right places. 

 

[nate22]

On 4/12/2019 at 6:00 AM, Frobby said:

For some reason, I find myself rooting against Gausman doing well.    It’s like I don’t want to believe that his so-so performance here was due to poor development and coaching.    It’s stupid, since all those coaches are gone, we have a completely new regime here, and generally I like the Braves.   But I also don’t want to feel like we got badly ripped off in that trade, and the better Gausman does, the worse I’ll feel about that. So I appreciate it when he has a mediocre game like last night’s.  

Meanwhile, at least Darren O’Day is making us look good for dumping his contract.    He’s still shut down with no projected return date.   https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbssports.com/fantasy/baseball/news/braves-darren-oday-shut-down/amp/.   But the truth is, I’ve always really liked O’Day and I hope he returns and does well for the Braves.

The thing that gets me with that trade is, at the time the Pirates were looking at both Gausman and Archer. If we could have somehow pried one of Meadows or Glasnow for Gausman, it would have been a great deal for us. Instead, it looks like we moved him to dump salary.

[sportsfan8703]

14 minutes ago, nate22 said:

The thing that gets me with that trade is, at the time the Pirates were looking at both Gausman and Archer. If we could have somehow pried one of Meadows or Glasnow for Gausman, it would have been a great deal for us. Instead, it looks like we moved him to dump salary.

DD was trying to save his job. I’m sure the owners were happy with the $12 million he saved them by unloading O’day. 

[DrungoHazewood]

9 hours ago, Uli2001 said:

"Hate" was used in the internet slang sense. To me, the fact that Baines was voted in over many players with larger WAR appears to discredit WAR not Baines.

What it tells me is that having your buddies on a Committee can veto the overwhelming decision of the voters of the BBWAA.  The writers never gave Baines more than 6% of the vote.  That's in line with his value from metrics such as WAR.

[DrungoHazewood]

16 hours ago, Frobby said:

This is kind of random but I was looking at the list of players Nick Markakis was likely to pass on the all time hit list this year, and one of them was Gary Gaetti.    Career OPS+ of 97 but he managed to stick in the bigs for 20 years and produce 42.1 rWAR.    Won 4 Gold Gloves, too.    Another member of the Hall of the Very Good.

Somehow I was watching on TV the day that Gaetti started two around-the-horn triple plays against the Red Sox.

[Number5]

11 hours ago, Uli2001 said:

"Hate" was used in the internet slang sense. To me, the fact that Baines was voted in over many players with larger WAR appears to discredit WAR not Baines.

I think that it discredits neither Baines nor WAR, but rather the committee.

[Uli2001]

15 hours ago, POR said:

In 5 years on  the hall of fame ballot where the requirement to get into the hall of fame is 75%, Baines' highest showing was 6.1%.

Baines getting in the hall was an example of having friends in the right places. 

 

"Don't hate the player, hate the game." Here I go with hate again, sorry. What I mean is there is a reason there is a committee and it's not just the baseball writers' call.