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Meoli on Holt

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LTO's Major Leaguer

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1 minute ago, Can_of_corn said:

In five season in Pitt Cole had a FIP of 3.33 or lower in four of them.

I would not say he was "much better" in Houston.

5.7 and 6.6 WAR in his two seasons in Houston. Didn't get above 4.5 in any season in Pitt. He was definitely better in Houston.  His 2019 season was on a level he will probably never reach again. 

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Can_of_corn Hangout Grand Counsel

Can_of_corn

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3 minutes ago, LTO's said:

5.7 and 6.6 WAR in his two seasons in Houston. Didn't get above 4.5 in any season in Pitt. He was definitely better in Houston.  His 2019 season was on a level he will probably never reach again. 

fWAR had him over 5 in 2015.

I don't like using rWAR for pitchers.

Cole was a very good pitcher for the Pirates who had, at most, one down season.  I'll agree that he was better in Houston, but I think saying he was much better is a slight to what he did in Pittsburgh.

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Sports Guy Hangout Grand Counsel

Sports Guy

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2 hours ago, LTO's said:

You said the "team" didn't develop pitching. I think you are grossly underrating their system in that regard. Most teams don't have 4 or 5 pitchers originally drafted/developed by their system in their starting rotation. Especially, when that team is a WS contender and had the farm to trade for elite talents like Verlander and Cole. Who, again, were much better in Houston than they had been in the recent years before they got there. 

The Red Sox won a world series without a single drafted player in their rotation. Same with the Cubs in 2016. I guess I don't really understand the complaint. The Astros have had good to elite pitching for about 5 years now. It doesn't matter to me where they come from. Even still, I disagree with your characterization of their pitching development. I doubt you'd find very many people in the industry that would be even close to as down on it as you are. It's was (is) an elite pipeline. 

I’m not complaining about anything.  I’m simply stating the fact that we are relying on Holt and pointing at the Astros as if they had all of this pitching success from their organization while he was there and that’s just not true.

The idea that they developed pitching before he got there is meaningless when we are discussing what HIS impact is and should be for us.  I don’t care about the impact of the guy who preceding him.  That’s not really helpful to us since that person isn’t in charge of our pitching.

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Frobby Hangout Grand Counsel

Frobby

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3 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

fWAR had him over 5 in 2015.

I don't like using rWAR for pitchers

fWAR says Ubaldo was worth 4.8 WAR as an Oriole.   rWAR says 0.1.    The guy posted an 80 ERA+ as an Oriole and had a 32-42 record, pitching mostly on good teams.   

F that.   
 

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Jammer7 Hangout Veteran Council

Jammer7

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Holt was just beginning to get to a position in the Astros organization to begin to dictate things as Assistant Pitching Coordinator. Perhaps there were things he took from the Astros, and then he had his own ideas that he now gets to administer. It has to play out for us to know. 

The jump from a 1980’s esque development program to where we are now, just two years later, is responsible for the jump in performance of so many minor leaguers. We will see if it is actually sustainable, or if the wear and tear becomes an issue. It is a great story of his rise. 

@Sports Guy I do not disagree with your stance, although I think they have been better than what you wrote. But not much better, really, when it comes to drafting and development. They inherited Keuchel and made him better, akin to John Means. I just hope Elias’ troubles with that have resonated with him and he has learned from those trials.

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SteveA Hangout Grand Counsel

SteveA

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5 hours ago, OrioleDog said:

I think the extra gear out of Verlander and Cole is the claim to fame, but even Verlander (basically Apollo) after 11 rental starts and two full years of raising the arm slot with brilliant results gave quotes about changing back down before present injuries erased his 2020/2021.

Next time he's on one of those team podcasts, I hope somebody digs into....pitching in Austria?

Don't forget Morton.  

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LTO's Major Leaguer

LTO's

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More effusive praise for Holt. This time from former Astros scouting director Kevin Goldstein at Fangraphs. Link is below. Relevant information: 

Jeff: Can you give any insight on what Chris Holt will be bringing as the Orioles big league pitching coach this year? I’m extremely optimistic after all the strides the minor league pitchers made in 2019 under him
 
Kevin Goldstein: I got to see Chris Holt’s work up close in Houston, and I think he’s absolutely remarkable. The arms there are in VERY GOOD hands.
 
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