“Get all 30 teams to compete every season”

[waroriole]

9 straight losses. Down 15-2, so about to be 10. This is not basic level of competitiveness. Severino batting 3rd and DH. McKenna batting 5th. 
 

When will the Orioles field a Major League team? This is four straight years. 

[sevastras]

6 hours ago, waroriole said:

9 straight losses. Down 15-2, so about to be 10. This is not basic level of competitiveness. Severino batting 3rd and DH. McKenna batting 5th. 
 

When will the Orioles field a Major League team? This is four straight years. 

Next year should be significantly better and 2023 should feel like they have a real shot at making the playoffs. What is your point? They suck this year. They also have some players that have to be on the 40 man this winter and if you know you are going to suck, why not be really good at it. 

[Can_of_corn]

5 hours ago, sevastras said:

Next year should be significantly better and 2023 should feel like they have a real shot at making the playoffs. What is your point? They suck this year. They also have some players that have to be on the 40 man this winter and if you know you are going to suck, why not be really good at it. 

Why should 2022 be significantly better?

Other than a partial season of Adley what do you see on the horizon?

 

120 innings split between AAA and the majors for Grayson? Ramping up to 100 pitches after the all star break?

Edited August 15, 2021 by Can_of_corn

[DrungoHazewood]

22 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

I'm not sure how much pull the younger players have in the union.  Are the more established players going to fight for changes that don't directly help them?

Both history and human nature suggests that the established players see the current system as the gauntlet they had to run through and they'll have a problem if Grayson Rodriguez doesn't have to run that and gets benefits they didn't.  Especially if it's going to be at the expense of older players.

[Gentile4]

1 hour ago, Can_of_corn said:

Why should 2022 be significantly better?

Other than a partial season of Adley what do you see on the horizon?

120 innings split between AAA and the majors for Grayson? Ramping up to 100 pitches after the all star break?

Agree. I'm not optimistic for 2022. Mancini/Mountcastle are adequate at 1B/DH, but the rest of the infield is a disaster with no imminent help apparent on the horizon. Hays, Mullins, and Santander are solid defensively, but as a group, need to improve offensively. They've not been terrible, but not great either.

And then there's the pitching. All the prospects are at Bowie, and after this season, I'm not feeling overly confident that those guys will succeed at the ML level after watching this year's prospects flounder in the ML. Unless they plan to sign two competent starters, I think we'll be lucky to win 65 games in 2022.

Edited August 15, 2021 by Gentile4

[DrungoHazewood]

1 hour ago, Can_of_corn said:

Why should 2022 be significantly better?

Other than a partial season of Adley what do you see on the horizon?

120 innings split between AAA and the majors for Grayson? Ramping up to 100 pitches after the all star break?

They're pretty clearly not going to be significantly better in 2022 just by relying on internal improvements and promotions.  They're going to have to go out and find players from outside the organization.  Given where they are with competitiveness and money I think the most likely way to do that would be 2011-12 kind of undervalued, underutilized players. 

The pitching has been so terrible that just finding two starters and three relievers who are competent majors leaguers might add 10 wins.  The starters' ERA is collectively, currently the 5th-worst since WWII, the relievers in the bottom 50.

[Frobby]

I think the O’s would be a little better next year if they merely stood pat, just from development and improvement from some of their younger players and a few minor league graduations.   But I do not think they should stand pat.  Next year really does need to be a year where the team improves significantly.   Fans can be patient with a rebuild when it’s needed, but patience only goes lasts so long.   Just reading this site day in and day out, patience is about at the breaking point.   

It should be very obvious to casual observers that pitching is the key to being mediocre rather than terrible.   The offense is bad, but it’s watchable.   The pitching simply takes us out of the competitive range in too many games.   We’ve allowed 7+ runs in 47 of 105 games, and gone 2-45 in those games.  Cutting those down is the key to playing non-embarrassing baseball.   

Getting a couple of decent pitchers to come here is a challenge, but Elias needs to figure out a way to acquire some pitching.   And having Rutschman behind the plate may help a little, though that’s a lot to ask from a rookie catcher.  

 

[foxfield]

13 hours ago, waroriole said:

9 straight losses. Down 15-2, so about to be 10. This is not basic level of competitiveness. Severino batting 3rd and DH. McKenna batting 5th. 
 

When will the Orioles field a Major League team? This is four straight years. 

Really?  It's been a tough stretch, but lets keep some empirical grounding.  4 years ago 8/14/18 the Orioles defeated the Mets 6-3.  In the lineup that day were Adam Jones, Jonathan Villar, Cedric Mullins, Trey Mancini.

Its year three...and it sucks...the Orioles hopefully will begin to try to win at the major leagues next year...But this muddling of facts is poor.  Its not just you so I apologize for pulling your quote.

The Orioles were last good in 16...and that is honestly a stretch.  2016 was the year that probably should have been the rebuild...instead we lost to Toronto in the WC playoffs (Britton) and had a losing season in '17 and kept everyone on board for '18 while still going for it. 

This team IS terrible.  But either lets honestly say we're in year three rebuild or accurately label it year 5 of suckitude.

[fitzi22]

Adding only Adley, Grayson and DL Hall even for a full season will only keep us from losing 100 games….. if we are lucky.  Certainly not competitive.  I said this in a different post but if everything works out perfect over the next 3-4 seasons we will still only be able to field 1/2 an MLB team with our farm system.  Something else needs to be done.  Show us what else you got Elias.

[foxfield]

11 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I think the O’s would be a little better next year if they merely stood pat, just from development and improvement from some of their younger players and a few minor league graduations.   But I do not think they should stand pat.  Next year really does need to be a year where the team improves significantly.   Fans can be patient with a rebuild when it’s needed, but patience only goes lasts so long.   Just reading this site day in and day out, patience is about at the breaking point.   

It should be very obvious to casual observers that pitching is the key to being mediocre rather than terrible.   The offense is bad, but it’s watchable.   The pitching simply takes us out of the competitive range in too many games.   We’ve allowed 7+ runs in 47 of 105 games, and gone 2-45 in those games.  Cutting those down is the key to playing non-embarrassing baseball.   

Getting a couple of decent pitchers to come here is a challenge, but Elias needs to figure out a way to acquire some pitching.   And having Rutschman behind the plate may help a little, though that’s a lot to ask from a rookie catcher.  

 

I think this is spot on Frobby.  Take last weekends series against Tampa.  Basically three blowout losses at home.  But if you look closer, all three of those games were close into the 8th inning and the Orioles were actually leading in the 8th in 2 of three.  A lot has to go right on the climb back up.  But real progress can be made if the Orioles can acquire some help in the pitching area.  Progress isn't playoffs, but competitive and scrappy play can lead to a brighter future.  

[Can_of_corn]

3 minutes ago, fitzi22 said:

Adding only Adley, Grayson and DL Hall even for a full season will only keep us from losing 100 games….. if we are lucky.  Certainly not competitive.  I said this in a different post but if everything works out perfect over the next 3-4 seasons we will still only be able to field 1/2 an MLB team with our farm system.  Something else needs to be done.  Show us what else you got Elias.

None of those three will be up for a full season.  Hall and Grayson will be on restrictive pitch counts and inning caps when they do get called up.

[waroriole]

2 hours ago, foxfield said:

Really?  It's been a tough stretch, but lets keep some empirical grounding.  4 years ago 8/14/18 the Orioles defeated the Mets 6-3.  In the lineup that day were Adam Jones, Jonathan Villar, Cedric Mullins, Trey Mancini.

Its year three...and it sucks...the Orioles hopefully will begin to try to win at the major leagues next year...But this muddling of facts is poor.  Its not just you so I apologize for pulling your quote.

The Orioles were last good in 16...and that is honestly a stretch.  2016 was the year that probably should have been the rebuild...instead we lost to Toronto in the WC playoffs (Britton) and had a losing season in '17 and kept everyone on board for '18 while still going for it. 

This team IS terrible.  But either lets honestly say we're in year three rebuild or accurately label it year 5 of suckitude.

What’s the problem? We’re in year 4 of not being a competitive ML team. There’s been no effort by the FO to make us a competitive team since 2018. Maybe I’m just cynical, but I don’t see that changing for next year either. So, the question remains, when will the Orioles be a legitimate ML team?

[Gentile4]

2 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

None of those three will be up for a full season.  Hall and Grayson will be on restrictive pitch counts and inning caps when they do get called up.

And let's not forget Hall only threw 31.3 innings this season, so I doubt they're going to be in any rush to get him to Baltimore in 2022.

[Just Regular]

For 2022, the talent on hand now, I think the best case is MLB innings allotments like:

Means 190, Rodriguez 140, Baumann 120, T. Wells 120, Bradish 120, Hall 49.5 (#FarmRankings!)

Then there's the whole crew of can sensible deployment curate a decent middle distance performer or three:

Lopez 90, Akin 90, Kremer 90, A. Wells 90, Lowther 90, K. Smith 90, Zimmermann 90

That's 1370 innings for 13 guys, though of course you'll never get 100% season long health/availability for any group of pitchers this large.   Early 2022, some of what I'll be looking for is is the team mindfully gearing down that second group towards roles in which they have a better chance to crack replacement level.   Obviously the April 2022 Orioles need not a relief ace, even if they have Carlos Correa and Noah Syndergaard.

I have heard Elias mention roster rules on his occasional broadcast joins and of course if the rules basically change so you can't work Evan Phillips for that Save and then cut him, or platoon a third of your pitching staff by series, or any of the extra 2% stuff the MLB Orioles haven't prioritized maximizing while building the org, that might curb the game slipping away from any "starting" pitcher not at least as good as John Means.   But if the 2022-2027 rules stay basically the same there, some of it becomes the art of finding that just right niche.

Some years ago Sam Miller on a podcast predicted in 50 years starting and relief pitcher roles would no longer exist in baseball.   I think curve beaters like Verlander, Cole, please oh please oh please Grayson will always deserve the biggest workloads their bio-vests and pitch data say is humanly possible, but the Brewers and Rays of recent years have shown the effectiveness of utilizing gazillions of pitchers.

[eddie83]

5 hours ago, Frobby said:

I think the O’s would be a little better next year if they merely stood pat, just from development and improvement from some of their younger players and a few minor league graduations.   But I do not think they should stand pat.  Next year really does need to be a year where the team improves significantly.   Fans can be patient with a rebuild when it’s needed, but patience only goes lasts so long.   Just reading this site day in and day out, patience is about at the breaking point.   

It should be very obvious to casual observers that pitching is the key to being mediocre rather than terrible.   The offense is bad, but it’s watchable.   The pitching simply takes us out of the competitive range in too many games.   We’ve allowed 7+ runs in 47 of 105 games, and gone 2-45 in those games.  Cutting those down is the key to playing non-embarrassing baseball.   

Getting a couple of decent pitchers to come here is a challenge, but Elias needs to figure out a way to acquire some pitching.   And having Rutschman behind the plate may help a little, though that’s a lot to ask from a rookie catcher.  

 

The terrible pitching masked the position player improvements from about 08-11. In 2012 when they threw well it all came together. 

Could not agree more with what you say.