No Japanese Invasion of Pearl Harbor - No Baltimore Orioles

[yeoledugger]

Pearl Harbor Stops the Birth of LA Browns

After reading this article, there are all sorts of “what ifs”.  In 1958, would the “Monumental City” have an MLB team called the Baltimore Dodgers?  Let your imagination run wild.

I suppose this post belongs in Orioles History, but I felt it suited here for now to gather more eyeballs due to much interest.

[Tony-OH]

Interesting history. Never knew any of that. Thanks Japan!  

[DrungoHazewood]

I think the author downplays the travel difficulties.  A train trip from New York to LA today probably takes three or four days.  I don't think it was any quicker back then.  And the Browns would have been the only west coast team, so each of the other seven AL teams would have had to go all the way out there, one at a time, to play one series.  To make it in any way feasible they'd probably have to play eight-game series or something.  I guess it's plausible, but pretty unlikely.  The first jet airline service wasn't until 1952, so I'd say that's a more realistic back end date for a Major League team on the west coast.

I think a better solution for everyone would have been to have the PCL go major in the 1950s.  It already negotiated an Open classification for a while, instead of AAA.  If not for the Dodgers/Giants moves in '57 the PCL makes a go of it, along with the proposed Continental League which was kind of torpedoed by expansion.  More competition and at least one geographically-aligned league might have presented some advantages.

[forphase1]

Curious...as someone who has ties to Baltimore but didn't grow up there, if the Orioles had never been in Baltimore (and providing no other team was there) who would the locals follow generally, pre-Nats?  Philly?  

Where I live (close to Huntington, WV) it's mainly Cincy fans, followed by Pirates, and then the Indians.  I'm one of only a couple folks I know who are Orioles fans.  

[Frobby]

1 hour ago, forphase1 said:

Curious...as someone who has ties to Baltimore but didn't grow up there, if the Orioles had never been in Baltimore (and providing no other team was there) who would the locals follow generally, pre-Nats?  Philly?  

Where I live (close to Huntington, WV) it's mainly Cincy fans, followed by Pirates, and then the Indians.  I'm one of only a couple folks I know who are Orioles fans.  

Baltimore had a very good independent minor league team, also called the Orioles, for many years before the Browns moved to Charm City.   I have the impression not many Baltimoreans really had a big rooting interest in a major league team.   Don’t forget DC had the Senators before Baltimore had a team.  Some people probably rooted for them.  I think we had a thread on this a year or two ago.   

[crowmst3k!]

2 hours ago, DrungoHazewood said:

The first jet airline service wasn't until 1952, so I'd say that's a more realistic back end date for a Major League team on the west coast.

Oh, you doubt the viability of private team zeppelins? 

[crowmst3k!]

22 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Baltimore had a very good independent minor league team, also called the Orioles, for many years before the Browns moved to Charm City.   I have the impression not many Baltimoreans really had a big rooting interest in a major league team.   Don’t forget DC had the Senators before Baltimore had a team.  Some people probably rooted for them.  I think we had a thread on this a year or two ago.   

They were in the international league, affiliated with the Phillies at the time. I wonder if Major League Baseball would have just promoted them as an expansion franchise if the Browns never relocated here.  

Edit: I don't know if my family still has it, but my maternal grandfather had a baseball signed by the 1944 championship squad. I remember seeing it when I was younger, I just don't know if we hung onto it or donated it. 

[Chelsea_Phil]

I have a serious question that is tangentially related to this topic.

On December 7th, 1941, we all know what happened, the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor, we declared war on them, Japan declared war on us, AND GERMANY ALSO DECLARED WAR ON US SOON THEREAFTER.

Now here is the kicker.  In early 1942, the German army was doing fairly well marching into Russia, and Hitler decided that he wanted the oil fields in the Kharkov region to assist the war effort, and so the Germans decided to attack Stalingrad.  We all know what happened next.  The Germans got bogged down in Stalingrad, and eventually the Russians drove them out of Russia, and the tide of WWII moved in the direction of the allies from this point on.  Now, how exactly did the Russians do that?  By transferring MILLIONS OF TROOPS FROM EASTERN RUSSIA TO STALINGRAD!  The Russians basically won by attrition, and lost a huge number of troops in the process, albiet while saving their country.

SO HERE IS MY ISSUE:  Since Germany was aligned with Japan and declared war on the US right after the US declared war on Germany, as an ally would do, WHY DID JAPAN NOT DECLARE WAR ON RUSSIA WHEN THE GERMANS INVADED RUSSIA, WHICH, IN MY MIND, WOULD HAVE FORCED RUSSIA TO KEEP THOSE EASTERN-FRONT TROOPS IN VLADIVOSTOK AND SIBERIA THERE AND NOT ALLOW THEM TO BE TRANSFERRED TO THE WESTERN FRONT TO PROTECT STALINGRAD?   To me, that may have changed the war (maybe or maybe not).

Now, maybe the German/Russia conflict was an undeclared war, I'm not sure, but that should not have stopped Japan from making aggressive gestures in the Eastern part of Russia, to force Russia to keep their troops there.

Thoughts?

Edited December 3, 2021 by Chelsea_Phil

[DrungoHazewood]

 

On 12/1/2021 at 5:13 PM, Frobby said:

Baltimore had a very good independent minor league team, also called the Orioles, for many years before the Browns moved to Charm City.   I have the impression not many Baltimoreans really had a big rooting interest in a major league team.   Don’t forget DC had the Senators before Baltimore had a team.  Some people probably rooted for them.  I think we had a thread on this a year or two ago.   

 

On 12/1/2021 at 5:33 PM, crowmst3k! said:

They were in the international league, affiliated with the Phillies at the time. I wonder if Major League Baseball would have just promoted them as an expansion franchise if the Browns never relocated here.  

Edit: I don't know if my family still has it, but my maternal grandfather had a baseball signed by the 1944 championship squad. I remember seeing it when I was younger, I just don't know if we hung onto it or donated it. 

Yep, by 1940 the Orioles had been on a downward trend since the '20s champs, and finally agreed to become a Phillies farm team.  I don't know how that went with the fans.  The Depression and the waning fortunes of the team probably decreased interest.  Not sure if anyone became a Phillies fan because of it, I'm sure there were at least a few.

In 1920 you could be as much a fan of an independent minor league team as you were of a major league team.  The Orioles were a perfectly legitimate choice for your fandom through the 1930s, and I'm sure a lot of folks hung on after that.  The 1944 Little World Series, partly because the O's home games were played in a large football stadium (Municipal, the forerunner of Memorial), outdrew the real World Series.  But by the 1950s independent minor league ball died, and wouldn't come back until the 1990s.  And then it was very different, made up of guys who washed out in A ball at 26.

[DrungoHazewood]

On 12/1/2021 at 5:30 PM, crowmst3k! said:

Oh, you doubt the viability of private team zeppelins? 

I'm a huge fan of giant rigid dirigibles, but by 1941 the use and viability of such contrivances was in steep decline due not only to the Hindenburg disaster, but also a series of weather-related incidents and structural failures involving the US Navy's massive lighter-than-air craft.

Also, at the typical cruising speed of a Graf Zeppelin class airship it would take over 50 hours to go from New York to Los Angeles.  Probably faster than a train, but still quite a long haul and subject to rerouting and delays if there's bad weather anywhere along the route.