Jorge Lopez traded to Twins for pitching prospects (edit)

[forphase1]

It was a good trade then and is still a good trade.  I'd have done it at the time and even with hindsight I'd still do it.  

[RZNJ]

1 minute ago, sportsfan8703 said:

Take out Wells’ results from the other night and this bullpen’s ERA is around 20. Spread over every reliever not named Bautista and Perez. 

Or Gillaspie who hasn't allowed an earned run or Coulombe who hasn't allowed an earned run.   

[Frobby]

4 minutes ago, sportsfan8703 said:

Take out Wells’ results from the other night and this bullpen’s ERA is around 20. Spread over every reliever not named Bautista and Perez. 

Perhaps I’ll wait until these guys have thrown, say, 10 innings each before concluding they’re worthless.   Everyone but Wells is under 4 IP.   Not a lot to go on.  

Edited April 6, 2023 by Frobby

[sportsfan8703]

2 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Perhaps I’ll wait until these guys have thrown, say, 10 innings each before concluding they’re worthless.   Everyone but Wells is under 4 IP.   Not a lot to go on.  

Do stats tell the story or can you just look at the stuff and see it’s not there?  How many swings and misses are these guys getting?  Baker is the only one that has “good stuff” but he’s shown he comes up small a lot. 
 

We’ve seen these guys. It’s not a video game. It’s a lot different pitching in medium-high leverage than it is being an up/down guy who comes into low leverage situations. 
 

Bottomline, this cast of characters in the pen aren’t new to us. We saw them all last year+. It’s not just the SSS this year. 

[BRobinsonfan]

1 hour ago, sportsfan8703 said:

Lopez could’ve already affected two games. The other teams are human too. It’s a big difference knowing you’re about to face a guy throwing 99mph sinkers versus cats like Baker/Gilaspie/Voth. 

I remember the two games he affected for us in July of 2022 when he blew two saves (against the Twins) in less than 24 hours.  Lopez only retired one hitter while allowing 6 hits including 2 home runs.  His ERA for those two games was 120.    Ain't a small sample size great!?  https://www.mlb.com/news/jorge-lopez-consecutive-blown-saves-vs-twins

 

Edited April 6, 2023 by BRobinsonfan

[Moose Milligan]

If Povich or anyone else from the Lopez trade turns out to be good for us, I vote that @sportsfan8703isn't allowed to enjoy them.

[wildcard]

2 hours ago, sportsfan8703 said:

This is a tough trade in retrospect. I know a couple of publications had Povich in their top 100, but it sure would be nice to have Lopez in MR/SU during the Adley/Gunnar years. 
 

Just because Bautista exploded onto the scene  doesn’t mean we had to run off and trade Lopez. Then Elias compounds things by giving Givens $7 million a year. Why not just keep Lopez?  
 

I think Elias got caught trying to be the smartest dude in the room instead of just riding with our guys. 
 

Last year we fell off the wagon because of middle relief and setup, looks like it’s happening again this year. You just don’t give away dudes that throw 99 mph sinkers and that can consistently get you 4-5 outs. 

If you are unhappy wth the Lopez/Povch trade you are probably going to hate what is coming.   

We know that Elias has not drafted pitchers high.   We know that he has traded for minor league pitchers including Bradish, Povich and Johnson.    There is probably more to come.

Santander may be traded when Kjerstad is ready for majors.  Elias probably will get minor league pitching in return.  And Santander could go on to hit 35 homers and drive in 100 for another team.  But so could Kjerstad for the O's.

Gibson and Frazier are former All-Stars.   And they may do well for the O's this year.  But if GRod, Hall, Westburg and Ortiz are ready for the majors, Elias may deal Frazier and Gibson at the deadline for minor league pitching. Gibson and Frazier are on one year contracts and Elias would rather have  prospects in return instead of letting them walk for nothing.

So look at Elias' pattern so far and realize that  Elias is going to keep injecting minor league talent into the farm system through trades.   What happens to the players that Elias trades is not a concern.   Continuing to bring high quality minor leaguers that Elias can develop is.

Beats the heck out of watching the team get old the way Duquette had to in the late 2010s.  That was probably Peter's fault but Elais mode of operation is completely different.

Edited April 6, 2023 by wildcard

[ThisIsBirdland]

2 minutes ago, wildcard said:

If you are unhappy wth the Lopez/Povch trade you are probably going to hate what is coming.   

We know that Elias has not drafted pitchers high.   We know that he has traded for minor league pitchers including Bradish, Povich and Johnson.    There is probably more to come.

Santander may be traded when Kjerstad is ready for majors.  Elias probably will get minor league pitching in return.  And Santander could go on to hit 35 homers and drive in 100 for another team.  But so could Kjerstad for the O's.

Gibson and Frazier are former All-Stars.   And they may do well for the O's this year.  But if GRod, Hall, Westburg and Ortiz are ready for the majors, Elias may deal Frazier and Gibson at the deadline for minor league pitching. Gibson and Frazier are on one year contract and Elias would rather have  prospect in return instead of letting they walk for nothing.

So look at Elias' pattern so far and realize that  Elias is going to keep injecting minor league talent into the farm system through trades.   What happens to the players that Elias trades is not a concern.   Continuing to bring high quality minor leaguers that Elias can develop is.

Beats the heck out of watching the team get old the way Duquette had to in the late 2010s.  That was probably Peter's fault but Elais mode of operation is completely different.

If Gibson and Frazier end up being good enough to be traded for legitimate pitching prospects while the front office wouldn't view losing them as jeopardizing a playoff push, that'd be a pretty fine line to tread. But it would be absolutely hilarious given the meltdown their signings caused this off-season.

[Tony-OH]

44 minutes ago, sportsfan8703 said:

Lopez was replaceable as closer with Bautista, but then who replaced Bautista in MR/SU. You can drive a Mack truck through that hole. 
 

The logic behind the trade was that we couldn’t afford Lopez’s arb # in 23-24. So instead we give a banged up/washed up Givens $8 million?  
 

Elias has been really good at tearing down and selling, but so far is record on supplementing a team on the verge is pretty suspect. 

Um, last year Baker filled it quite well.

After the trade:

Name                           ERA    FIP     BF       BA     OBP    SLG    OPS    

Baker                          2.39    2.73    102    .192    .255    .287    .542
Lopez                         4.37    4.35    102    .271    .392    .365    .757

I'd argue that trading Lopez and giving Baker his innings helped the team stay in the playoff hunt as long as they did.

Oh, and Givens was given $5 million, not $8 million and we have Povich and three lottery tickets in the system now.

I don't disagree with your conclusion that Elias has struggled a bit to augment his core young players, but I think you are barking up the wrong tree with the Lopez trade. That trade was a very good one by Elias and let's see how Baker pitches for more than three games before saying he's terrible. In case you haven't noticed, he's allowed one hit, and no runs over his last three innings in his last two games pitched.

 

[wildcard]

12 minutes ago, ThisIsBirdland said:

If Gibson and Frazier end up being good enough to be traded for legitimate pitching prospects while the front office wouldn't view losing them as jeopardizing a playoff push, that'd be a pretty fine line to tread. But it would be absolutely hilarious given the meltdown their signings caused this off-season.

That Elias is smarter than the fan base should not surprise us.    He has built an analytics depertmant that can evaluate FA and possible trade targets.  They take into account how the coaching and development team can improve players.   That is a much  better system than anything the fans have.

Edited April 6, 2023 by wildcard

[Moose Milligan]

1 minute ago, wildcard said:

 That is a much  better system than anything the fans have.

We have our stubbornness.  

[RZNJ]

24 minutes ago, sportsfan8703 said:

Do stats tell the story or can you just look at the stuff and see it’s not there?  How many swings and misses are these guys getting?  Baker is the only one that has “good stuff” but he’s shown he comes up small a lot. 
 

We’ve seen these guys. It’s not a video game. It’s a lot different pitching in medium-high leverage than it is being an up/down guy who comes into low leverage situations. 
 

Bottomline, this cast of characters in the pen aren’t new to us. We saw them all last year+. It’s not just the SSS this year. 

Yeah, we saw them last year.  Baker was good last year, especially in the 2nd half.  Voth was good the whole time he was with us last year.  Gillaspie didn't look that good last year but he looks much better this year.   Akin was solid first half last year.   Perez and Bautista look the same to me.   The guy I trust the least is Baumann but he's got potential.    Voth is fixable.  Baker looks to be coming around.   You are panicking over a few games.

[sportsfan8703]

22 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

If Povich or anyone else from the Lopez trade turns out to be good for us, I vote that @sportsfan8703isn't allowed to enjoy them.

Can Povich come pitch in middle relief this year?  I’m serious. Because we’re desperate. 
 

I hope this doesn’t happen, but if the Yankees might hang 15 on the bullpen alone this series. And that’s a damn shame that Elias constructed a roster that way. And it started with the Lopez trade. But it’s cool… Povich is two years away from being a back end SP. 

[Tony-OH]

17 minutes ago, ThisIsBirdland said:

If Gibson and Frazier end up being good enough to be traded for legitimate pitching prospects while the front office wouldn't view losing them as jeopardizing a playoff push, that'd be a pretty fine line to tread. But it would be absolutely hilarious given the meltdown their signings caused this off-season.

I don't recall anyone having much heartburn over the Gibson signing. In fact, most of us thought it was awash with a chance to be better than 2022 Lyles.

[spleen1015]

I believe I saw an interview with Hyde during ST and he was talking about DL Hall in the pen. He said they wanted to give SP every opportunity to saw that they can be ML SP before they move them to the pen. So, I wouldn't count on seeing Povich in the pen.