What happened to the fanbase? Only 8,000 last night

[Alasdaire]

1 hour ago, Tony-OH said:

You are making some great points here and Ido believe some people don't really understand how a generation have grown up with the Orioles being more of an embarrassment than something to e proud of. 

My youngest son is 26 years old and this is the first time since 2014 he's brought up something about the Orioles to me. Is he a fan of them sure, but does he have his heart and soul in games like me, no, he doesn't. He's been inundated with Orioles since he was kid, but they've mostly been bad. 

Hopefully, with some sustained winning and the new young core coming up (He's excited over Rutschman and Gunnar) that generation will start to pay more attention and want to go to games with their friends. Now I'm not saying some don't do this already, but the only way back to decent attendance on non giveaway nights during school season is to win and win consistently. 

Exactly. I'm 31, and what are the highlights of my life as an O's fan? The 2014 ALCS where we got swept? Who are the titans of my era? Manny, who we traded because we couldn't afford to sign him? I don't blame your son; even though his dad is one of the most legendary O's fans of all time, he has had almost nothing to latch onto throughout his entire life. And in addition to that, ownership and rampant losing has actively made the franchise a laughingstock.

Speaking for myself, even though I love/played the game and was brought to OPACY a lot as a kid, I wouldn't have stuck around if I hadn't also been fascinated by the process of building for the future. I used to write articles for Camdenchat as a teenager in the late-aughts about the days when Brian Matusz and Matt Hobgood would end the decade-long losing streak. I know many here were in the same boat, but how many of us are there really? Certainly not enough to fill a 46k stadium on a weeknight.

Everything changes if you're competitive; you no longer have to live off of hopium, market share, or allusions to players who retired 45 years ago.

 

1 hour ago, DrungoHazewood said:

That's a good post, and I agree.  Baseball has a big problem that younger fans have turned to other sports and other activities, but it compounds that problem when people born in 1990 or 2000 or even 2010 mostly know the Orioles as a team that loses 90 or 100 games most years.

I've been an Orioles fan for over 40 years and my teenage kids watch and certainly play a lot more soccer than baseball.  Heck, for most of the last 4-5 years I have, too.

Right. I think the NBA is has pretty firmly displaced baseball for younger generations. And with the advent of streaming, there has been an increasing trend toward rooting for individual players/the league as a whole. You're not behold to the team that comes on AM radio anymore.

[spiritof66]

There are a couple of factors that are MLB problems, not Oriole problems: slow pace of game, hangover from Covid, disgust with MLB's leadership (maybe that's just me.  The Oriole-specific factors are pretty obvious and have been covered in this thread.

What's less clear is this. If the Orioles win or contend for the AL East title for a few years, and even if they get to or win a World Series, when and how much will attendance increase? To summarize what I said in a discussion on this topic when it was being bounced around a couple of years ago, and some posters pointed to the Astros' dramatic increase from 1.6 million in 2012 to almost 3 million in 2018, I don't think that answers the question. Baltimore is a much, much tougher market than Houston for attracting fans and season ticket buyers who will pay to see an exciting young team that has turned around and become competitive after a few very down years.

[Fiver6565]

Baseball needs to figure out how to make it easier for people to watch their product. Start by fixing the ridiculous blackout rules so that if someone buys MLB TV they can see whatever team they want, no matter where they are located - including their actual local team. This opens up the market to streamers who otherwise have very limited options to subscribe to the local RSN to see the team play. 
 

If you can’t see baseball, you aren’t going to care about baseball. 

[Can_of_corn]

4 minutes ago, spiritof66 said:

There are a couple of factors that are MLB problems, not Oriole problems: slow pace of game, hangover from Covid, disgust with MLB's leadership (maybe that's just me.  The Oriole-specific factors are pretty obvious and have been covered in this thread.

What's less clear is this. If the Orioles win or contend for the AL East title for a few years, and even if they get to or win a World Series, when and how much will attendance increase? To summarize what I said in a discussion on this topic when it was being bounced around a couple of years ago, and some posters pointed to the Astros' dramatic increase from 1.6 million in 2012 to almost 3 million in 2018, I don't think that answers the question. Baltimore is a much, much tougher market than Houston for attracting fans and season ticket buyers who will pay to see an exciting young team that has turned around and become competitive after a few very down years.

They didn't break 2.5M during the 2012-2016 run and I don't see a reason that should change very much going forward.

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, Fiver6565 said:

Baseball needs to figure out how to make it easier for people to watch their product. Start by fixing the ridiculous blackout rules so that if someone buys MLB TV they can see whatever team they want, no matter where they are located - including their actual local team. This opens up the market to streamers who otherwise have very limited options to subscribe to the local RSN to see the team play. 
 

If you can’t see baseball, you aren’t going to care about baseball. 

Baseball thrived for decades before televised games were a thing.

[Fiver6565]

2 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Baseball thrived for decades before televised games were a thing.

Not exactly competing in the same market as they were back then, are they?  Not sure how this is even relevant. 

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, Fiver6565 said:

Not exactly competing in the same market as they were back then, are they?  Not sure how this is even relevant. 

Yes I think they should fix the blackout issues.

That isn't what is causing a lack of attendance.

Baseball has never relied on television to drive fans to the stadium.

[ORIOLE33]

1 hour ago, Redskins Rick said:

Only 8 home games, I see less kids at NFL games, then MLB games.

 

But the main excuse people use is “it’s so dangerous.” It’s dangerous for O’s games, but not Ravens games? 

[GuidoSarducci]

On 9/8/2022 at 8:32 AM, DrungoHazewood said:

Be forewarned, I'm going to go on a little tangent. Ignore if you like.

Looking at the Orioles' historic attendance numbers, bb-ref lumps them in with the St. Louis Browns.  The Browns existed from 1902 through 1953.  Their highest season attendance was 718k in 1922.  Their median attendance was 276k, or about 3500 a game.  In 2019, before the pandemic, the independent Atlantic League, full of anonymous players who washed out of AA at 27, had four teams that drew more than 276k in just a 140-game schedule.  During the Depression the Browns had three seasons where they drew under 100k fans for the the entire year, or a little over 1000 a game.

On Thursday, May 9th, 1935 the Browns played the A's in front of an announced crowd of 200.  That year they'd play 11 home games and four road games with announced attendances under 1000.

So just imagine that.  Major League teams who were being run like an indy league team today.  This was before outside revenues for media, by the 40s they may have been getting a little money from radio.  But a large percentage of revenues were game day.  Tickets, concessions, ads on the wall. You probably didn't pay for parking, just found a spot in the city. Most tickets probably were like $1. There had to have been years where the Browns' total gross revenues were like $300-500k.  The front office was probably two guys.  They'd have a couple coaches. Who knows how they did scouting, probably barely.  It's no wonder many teams didn't have many formal minor league affiliates until the 40s.  How do you pay for minor league teams on that budget? You can barely afford 25 major leaguers.  Remember, in 1930-31 Babe Ruth was making $80k a year.  I'd bet the Browns didn't make $80k that year, so the O's making less than Scherzer this year isn't unprecedented.

I'm sure there are books about this, but there had to have been discussions with the league about what they'd do if a team went bankrupt.  In the 1930s several teams had to have been really close.  It wouldn't surprise me if the league or other owners fronted some cash to the tail-end teams help make payroll. Even if that violated some rules.

 

Team's won't go bankrupt in the modern era as there is revenue sharing.  This article indicates that from the national TV deal alone, every team is guaranteed basically $60 million, on top of their local TV deal which is at minimum $40m.  And that's even before considered gate revenues (that is also split between teams).  BB ref had an article a while back that seemed to imply almost every team would have a revenue of $200 million at minimum, but that did seem a bit high to me.

When teams have atrocious finances (i.e. Montreal), they will eventually get moved if there is no plan for shoring those up.

[Frobby]

6 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

They didn't break 2.5M during the 2012-2016 run and I don't see a reason that should change very much going forward.

Nope.  I’m interested to see if they eventually can return to 2.172 mm they drew in 2016.   They made the playoffs that year but attendance dropped by more than 100k. In my opinion that was due to the 2015 riots and increased public perception that Baltimore was unsafe.  

Attendance this year should top 2019’s 1.31 mm.   I’d guess next years will top 2018’s 1.56 mm, assuming the team has a decent year.   
 

[Guest]

Not to be THAT guy but there are non-baseball reasons to as to why people from the county or wherever don't want to go into the city to an Orioles game. I've felt more at ease in Mazar-e-Sharif, Afghanistan then I do in some parts of Baltimore. Went to the game Saturday for the soccer jersey night and had a decent crowd. Got the jersey only to have it stolen from us as we left them under our seats while we took the kids to the bathroom.  We drove back to my buddies house who lives in Canton as we cut through the inner harbor, I hadn't realized how empty it was and how little there was to do in the harbor. Few restaurants, few bars. No one other than departing Orioles fans walking to their vehicles. The Inner Harbor is a shadow of its former self.

I don't like the Nationals, but at least when you go to a Nat's game you have almost too many options as to bars and places to go before and after the game. Dempsey's doesn't do any business outside of the season, the Hilton has struggled financially as well due to its location. Then you have dirt bike gangs, and ATV riders pulling up besides you, cutting through lanes and red lights. I mean I guess you could stay in Harbor East and Uber over to the stadium but I doubt that's an option for working class families in the suburbs. The lite rail is a complete non-starter as well. Even my buddy who lives in Canton is just very careful as to where not to go within the city.

Its' all very sad because in the past my parents talked about their nights out when the city was safer, how they'd all drive down to Baltimore for the night - but that's another planet at this point and they don't go to city anymore unless going to Hopkins for appointments.

Is what it is - barring investments in the area and clearing out the cities crime and poverty attendance will lag.

 

Edited September 9, 2022 by MDS29

[glenn__davis]

9 minutes ago, MDS29 said:

I don't like the Nationals, but at least when you go to a Nat's game you have almost too many options as to bars and places to go before and after the game. Dempsey's doesn't do any business outside of the season, the Hilton has struggled financially as well due to its location. Then you have dirt bike gangs, and ATV riders pulling up besides you, cutting through lanes and red lights. I mean I guess you could stay in Harbor East and Uber over to the stadium but I doubt that's an option for working class families in the suburbs. The lite rail is a complete non-starter as well. Even my buddy who lives in Canton is just very careful as to where not to go within the city.

 

The Light Rail is OK, it's just slow.  When I was a kid we took the metro all the time, I stopped doing that a few years back due to being harassed multiple times on the walk to or from the stadium.

The past few years we started parking over in lots D, G or N (whatever's open) and I've never felt unsafe.  Relatively short walk to the stadium and easy access back to 95.

Edited September 9, 2022 by glenn__davis

[Redskins Rick]

21 minutes ago, ORIOLE33 said:

But the main excuse people use is “it’s so dangerous.” It’s dangerous for O’s games, but not Ravens games? 

Your right, totally bogus excuse.

[Moose Milligan]

45 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Baseball thrived for decades before televised games were a thing.

 

40 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Yes I think they should fix the blackout issues.

That isn't what is causing a lack of attendance.

Baseball has never relied on television to drive fans to the stadium.

Yeah, but they shouldn't ignore it.  The blackout issues are absurd.  I would gladly fork over money each year for MLB.TV if it meant I could watch Orioles games as well as games in other markets.  

I've been saying this for years, the stadium experience is overrated.  It's fine if you live within close proximity of the stadium and can walk there or take an Uber.  But there's no good reason to schlep to a stadium when you can watch on a big HD TV from the comfort of your home, have your own food and drinks, not fry your ass off in the middle of summer and have the ability to turn the game off and go do something else if they're getting blown out.  

I went to OPACY exactly once in 2021, and it wasn't to see the Orioles, it was to see Ohtani.  I haven't been this year, but a buddy of mine wants to go later this month but I'm not sure.  It's still a pain in the ass to get to and quite frankly I'd rather just watch from home.  

Anyway, my point is that I don't know if the Orioles necessarily care where they're getting money from as long as they're getting money.  And if they want more of my money, fix the stupid ****ing blackout issue so they can get a portion of the 150 bucks or whatever that I'd spend on MLB.TV.  Obviously they'd like to have more people at the ballpark but like Yogi said, if they don't want to come to the park how are you gonna stop them?  

[CharmCityHokie]

33 minutes ago, MDS29 said:

Not to be THAT guy but there are non-baseball reasons to as to why people from the county or wherever don't want to go into the city to an Orioles game. I've felt more at ease in Mazar-e-Sharif, Afghanistan then I do in some parts of Baltimore. Went to the game Saturday for the soccer jersey night and had a decent crowd. Got the jersey only to have it stolen from us as we left them under our seats while we took the kids to the bathroom.  We drove back to my buddies house who lives in Canton as we cut through the inner harbor, I hadn't realized how empty it was and how little there was to do in the harbor. Few restaurants, few bars. No one other than departing Orioles fans walking to their vehicles. The Inner Harbor is a shadow of its former self.

I don't like the Nationals, but at least when you go to a Nat's game you have almost too many options as to bars and places to go before and after the game. Dempsey's doesn't do any business outside of the season, the Hilton has struggled financially as well due to its location. Then you have dirt bike gangs, and ATV riders pulling up besides you, cutting through lanes and red lights. I mean I guess you could stay in Harbor East and Uber over to the stadium but I doubt that's an option for working class families in the suburbs. The lite rail is a complete non-starter as well. Even my buddy who lives in Canton is just very careful as to where not to go within the city.

Its' all very sad because in the past my parents talked about their nights out when the city was safer, how they'd all drive down to Baltimore for the night - but that's another planet at this point and they don't go to city anymore unless going to Hopkins for appointments.

Is what it is - barring investments in the area and clearing out the cities crime and poverty attendance will lag.

 

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you that Baltimore wasn't what it was a decade+ or so ago, but comparing it to SE DC is not a great argument. I work in DC, live just outside of it, all those same problems are here, ATV/dirtbike gangs (if it's a nice day tomorrow you'll see them stopping 495 between the Wilson Bridge and 295 before heading into DC proper), WMATA is a disaster (someone just set a metro seat on fire this morning at Eastern Market, just a few blocks up from Nats Park at 9 in the morning), there are shootings and violence all the time and the 1000 SE block of Capitol St is no different. I'm not trying to say there aren't legitimate problems and reasons to be wary in Baltimore, but using DC as an example of what could be better doesn't have much traction.