Connor Norby 2023

[Bemorewins]

28 minutes ago, Alasdaire said:

Are you saying that championships precede culture? I think it’s the other way around. And either way, winning championships can’t be a solution to anything given the extreme degree of difficulty. I say build the culture and trust that the championships will come form that.

As to the Ravens, I agree that much of their success comes from the rock solid stability that they have at the top with Bisciotti/Ozzie/DeCosta/Harbaugh. But I think the value from that is they can take the long view with almost every decision they make in a way that other front offices/coaches can’t because they’re worried about their jobs. I applaud Mike Elias for taking this sort of the approach during the deadline and not giving in to the manufactured sense of urgency.

As compared to other teams now, the Ravens are amongst the teams with the highest percentage of homegrown talent every season in the NFL. I also remember seeing a statistic recently that gauged which teams produced the most talent by looking at the organization they started with and the Ravens led the league by a significant margin. That comes from stacking players in a way that looks redundant at the time in the same way that our infield depth does now. And it comes from instilling a standard that everyone is held to and adopts, which is much easier to do with guys you’ve developed from the beginning.

Yes. I am saying that part of developing a winning culture comes from actually winning and that includes championships.

While I agree with your assessment on the Ravens ability to draft and develop. That is not nor has it ever been there only means of success. The Ravens (unlike the Orioles thus far under Elias) have always utilized Free Agency as an effective part of their roster building/construction.

The Ravens have been successful at times with drafting/utilizing roster duplicates and sometimes it has really hurt them, like last year, with the too many TEs and not enough WRs. And thus the pivoted to a different strategy this year. 

This is what Elias has yet to prove, that he is not so dogmatic about any one approach and can pivot when the time comes.

[emmett16]

1 hour ago, Bemorewins said:

Yes. I am saying that part of developing a winning culture comes from actually winning and that includes championships.

While I agree with your assessment on the Ravens ability to draft and develop. That is not nor has it ever been there only means of success. The Ravens (unlike the Orioles thus far under Elias) have always utilized Free Agency as an effective part of their roster building/construction.

The Ravens have been successful at times with drafting/utilizing roster duplicates and sometimes it has really hurt them, like last year, with the too many TEs and not enough WRs. And thus the pivoted to a different strategy this year. 

This is what Elias has yet to prove, that he is not so dogmatic about any one approach and can pivot when the time comes.

What has Elias been dogmatic about that has lead to an underwhelming performance?  

[emmett16]

10 hours ago, RVAOsFan said:

Connor Norby thread buried on page 5 while he is doing nothing but crushing the ball. I honestly kinda feel bad for the guy. He should be in the majors but isn’t even the next infielder in line to get the call. 

Ultimate jinx lol - no hits today in two games.  He did smoke the ball a few times.  Line out to LF and line to 3B for a double play.  He made some really nice plays at 2B today.  

[emmett16]

10 hours ago, RZNJ said:

He was having a nice, but disappointing year, up until July.  Now he’s hitting like he did at the end of last year.   Will Elias trade him this off season or hang on to him going into the 2024 season?   The good news is that his stock should be on the rise if he can continue the .969 July OPS pace.

I think Norby & Ortiz simply replace Mateo & Frazier and they rotate Gunnar, Ortiz, Westburg, & Norby like they’ve done since Westburg got called up.  Urias likely gets traded IMO.  Good value for a trade and starting to get a little expensive.  

[emmett16]

8 hours ago, RVAOsFan said:

ECU Alum, been following Norby for years, he is my favorite Oriole as soon as he gets the call.

ECU was by far my favorite place to play when I was in school.   Incredible environment.  I will always pull for Pirates in the league.  I’m a massive Norby fan, been watching him play for years.  Was hoping Os we’re gonna snag Moylan.

[RVAOsFan]

15 minutes ago, emmett16 said:

ECU was by far my favorite place to play when I was in school.   Incredible environment.  I will always pull for Pirates in the league.  I’m a massive Norby fan, been watching him play for years.  Was hoping Os we’re gonna snag Moylan.

Moylans freshman year was incredible but then had a massive sophomore slump.  Burleson moved quickly through the farm and has been pretty decent with the cards so far. Williams looking like a stud in Cleveland.
I was pumped when the O’s drafted Norby and I thought Whisenhunt might fall to our second pick last year but he’s looking promising in the SF system. 

[Bemorewins]

9 hours ago, emmett16 said:

What has Elias been dogmatic about that has lead to an underwhelming performance?  

Nothing has hurt the team performance. I think you may have read that part into my post?

[btdart20]

10 hours ago, Bemorewins said:

Yes. I am saying that part of developing a winning culture comes from actually winning and that includes championships.

Elias started the culture building with the lower levels.  By nearly all accounts, he's drafted "high character"/"good guys" (sure some of that is fluff).  The IF guys (Westburg/Gunnar/Norby/Ortiz) have a ton of overlapping time and progressed together with Cowser.  Adley/Grayson have been together quite a bit.  Even Hall was with them a good amount as well.  Mayo played with Adley (rehab), Norby, and Cowser early last year in Aberdeen too.  And those teams have been good.  They have won together.  And there appears to be a genuine friendship among the core guys.  

TBD how that culture translates to rings, but that clubhouse culture looks ambitious, relaxed, and fun.  Hearing Gibson the other day talk about the trade deadline, sounds like they are confident too.

5 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

Nothing has hurt the team performance. I think you may have read that part into my post?

Some words mean more than just their definition.  Choosing to use a loaded word like "dogmatic" while positioning your comment as objective creates an emotional appeal (in this context it was for better decision making from Elias).  

[Bemorewins]

1 hour ago, btdart20 said:

Elias started the culture building with the lower levels.  By nearly all accounts, he's drafted "high character"/"good guys" (sure some of that is fluff).  The IF guys (Westburg/Gunnar/Norby/Ortiz) have a ton of overlapping time and progressed together with Cowser.  Adley/Grayson have been together quite a bit.  Even Hall was with them a good amount as well.  Mayo played with Adley (rehab), Norby, and Cowser early last year in Aberdeen too.  And those teams have been good.  They have won together.  And there appears to be a genuine friendship among the core guys.  

TBD how that culture translates to rings, but that clubhouse culture looks ambitious, relaxed, and fun.  Hearing Gibson the other day talk about the trade deadline, sounds like they are confident too.

Some words mean more than just their definition.  Choosing to use a loaded word like "dogmatic" while positioning your comment as objective creates an emotional appeal (in this context it was for better decision making from Elias).  

I appreciate your detailed response. The word dogma was used in reference to organizational philosophy when comparing the Ravens to the Orioles.

I apologize for the emotional response that it appears to have caused you. I don’t have the same sort of emotional experience with the word.

IMO - The Ravens have been daily dogmatic about some game strategies/game scripts- win with defense, run the ball, control time of possession, be more physical than your opponent, hide from within, positional value, devaluing passing game, draft & development team, ancillary use of free agency, etc. 

While many of these things philosophies have proven to lead to success over the years, IMO they realized that they were at an organizational crossroads (with Jackson’s contract) and they need to pivot/make some changes - i.e. resigning Jackson, new O coordinator, big free agent WR, first round receiver on top of FA WR (attempting to load up on O instead historically on D especially through passing game).

This is where my use of the word “dogma” was intended to speak to. They made a choice to pivot from core strategies/philosophies that they believed strongly because they realized that there was a ceiling on those things and the needed to adapt.

This is applicable to the Orioles because Elias and Sig have their core philosophies/principles as well. They have been to yield fruit and lead to success. However, a time will come when they will need to pivot/adapt and not be dogmatic about certain things that lead to success.

We will see if they are willing/able to do so. IMO what is different about the Ravens is that they have already done so.

[Alasdaire]

On 8/3/2023 at 9:44 AM, Bemorewins said:

While many of these things philosophies have proven to lead to success over the years, IMO they realized that they were at an organizational crossroads (with Jackson’s contract) and they need to pivot/make some changes - i.e. resigning Jackson, new O coordinator, big free agent WR, first round receiver on top of FA WR (attempting to load up on O instead historically on D especially through passing game).

This is where my use of the word “dogma” was intended to speak to. They made a choice to pivot from core strategies/philosophies that they believed strongly because they realized that there was a ceiling on those things and the needed to adapt.

This is applicable to the Orioles because Elias and Sig have their core philosophies/principles as well. They have been to yield fruit and lead to success. However, a time will come when they will need to pivot/adapt and not be dogmatic about certain things that lead to success.

We will see if they are willing/able to do so. IMO what is different about the Ravens is that they have already done so.

You're characterizing the Ravens as an example of adaptation that the Orioles should follow, but I'm not sure that what the Ravens have done actually reflects that. Sure, they hired a new offensive coordinator, but only after the Roman experiment was very clearly over with.

The offer Lamar ended up accepting was, so far as we can tell, only slightly higher than what they offered him before last season. They even placed the non-exclusive tag on him. So it seems like they had their number and stood by it.

DeCosta's biggest free agent signings have been a safety (Marcus Williams) and an inside linebacker (Roquan Smith). Those are positions that the conventional wisdom views as low value. The contract they gave Odell was for one year and isn't in the upper echelon of receiver money.

Yes they drafted a receiver in the first round this year. But Ozzie drafted three first-round receivers and DeCosta drafted two before Zay this year. They follow their board as they always have.

The Ravens have their convictions and stick by them come hell or high water. They're on their own timeline and aren't particularly concerned with what the zeitgeist is urging them to do.

You mentioned that the Orioles have exhibited some similar traits. Taking Kjerstad/Cowser when no one else had them there. Drafting hitter after hitter even with popular pitchers on the board. Selling last year when they could have gone for a wild card berth. And now, holding on to guys like Norby when people are screaming at them to cash in their chips.

Having strong convictions in the face of the general consensus has worked out spectacularly so far. I hope they continue to stand by those first principles.

[Moose Milligan]

Maybe it's just me, but I think comparing the strategy of how to build a football team compared to how to build a baseball team is a bit silly.

[jamorrow91]

On 8/2/2023 at 10:34 PM, emmett16 said:

I think Norby & Ortiz simply replace Mateo & Frazier and they rotate Gunnar, Ortiz, Westburg, & Norby like they’ve done since Westburg got called up.  Urias likely gets traded IMO.  Good value for a trade and starting to get a little expensive.  

I think that this makes sense but then what happens when Holliday comes up?

[connja]

There has to be some trades this winter, otherwise the good culture that Elias has built will be at risk of deserving guys being pissed they are not getting their opportunities.  

[emmett16]

4 hours ago, jamorrow91 said:

I think that this makes sense but then what happens when Holliday comes up?

My guess is he gets close to a full year at AAA and comes up for his 100+ ABs at the end of the year.  

[IPlayGM]

8 minutes ago, emmett16 said:

My guess is he gets close to a full year at AAA and comes up for his 100+ ABs at the end of the year.  

I realize that has been the pattern, but I would be surprised if it continues for him. Exception being if he has a prolonged period of struggle or just average play.