For The Times they are a'Changin

[owknows]

7 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Before they changed the rules.

Yes. You've already made that point a few times.

[owknows]

1 minute ago, Sports Guy said:

The Os are not in this position because of rebuilding/tanking for several years and they didn’t need to do it for that long to build a top notch system.

Whether they "needed" to do it as long as they did is a matter of opinion.

Whether they gained ongoing and greater benefit from it, is not.

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, owknows said:

For what it's worth... I didn't say anything about correlations between tanking and small markets.

I talked about correlation between building a team on a budget and small markets.

There's nothing that stopped bigger market teams from tanking.

They do however, being bigger market teams, tend to come out of their rebuild cycle by gobbling up high priced FAs. Often causing their own pain a few years down the road.

What we're discussing here is something different.

An intentional strategy of staying in a small budget perpetually while remaining competitive.

 

I still don't get it.

The Cubs and Astros tanked and they aren't small market.

The Brewers and Guardians are small market, have limited budgets and they don't tank.

[Sports Guy]

1 minute ago, owknows said:

Whether they "needed" to do it as long as they did is a matter of opinion.

Whether they gained ongoing and greater benefit from it, is not.

You are right, it’s not a matter of opinion.  It’s a fact that they didn’t need to and it’s a fact that they aren’t here do to rebuilding..or at least solely because of it.  It’s a small reason why.

[Can_of_corn]

4 minutes ago, owknows said:

Yes. You've already made that point a few times.

I was surprised you didn't get it the first time.

[owknows]

Just now, Can_of_corn said:

I still don't get it.

The Cubs and Astros tanked and they aren't small market.

The Brewers and Guardians are small market, have limited budgets and they don't tank.

You seem to be being intentionally obtuse here.

We're discussing building low-budget competitive teams.

Tanking is one tool that might provide some benefit in this regard. But it is certainly not the only tool.

Nor is building a low-budget contender necessarily the object of a team that tanks (as witnessed by the aforementioned Cubs and Astros.)

You have a tendency to argue as a sophist.

Making subtle shifts in the direction of a discussion, rather than addressing points directly.

I'm sure it serves you well if your objective is ego driven.

I guess I was looking for a good faith discussion.

[Can_of_corn]

6 minutes ago, owknows said:

You seem to be being intentionally obtuse here.

We're discussing building low-budget competitive teams.

Tanking is one tool that might provide some benefit in this regard. But it is certainly not the only tool.

Nor is building a low-budget contender necessarily the object of a team that tanks (as witnessed by the aforementioned Cubs and Astros.)

You have a tendency to argue as a sophist.

Making subtle shifts in the direction of a discussion, rather than addressing points directly.

I'm sure it serves you well if your objective is ego driven.

I guess I was looking for a good faith discussion.

It is a strategy.

It isn't one that is better suited to small markets.

The Rays, Brewers and Guardians don't tank.

The Cubs, Astros and Phillies tanked.

I don't think there is anything actually there.  I think you are just trying to justify the approach your favourite team took.

 

I was hoping for a quality discussion but you seem to fall back to attacking me.

Night.

[owknows]

2 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

I don't think there is anything actually there.  I think you are just trying to justify the approach your favourite team took.

 

 

Actually, the point of the thread was that the top four teams in baseball right now all have payrolls in the bottom third of the league.

And that three of the top four have payrolls in the lowest 4 payrolls.

I found that somewhat remarkable. Surprised that you don't.

In short, my point isn't about my "favourite" team.

It's about the top 4 teams in baseball.

But you knew that. It just didn't fit with your attempt to derail a discussion.

 

Nite.

[RarityFlaherty]

36 minutes ago, owknows said:

Whether they "needed" to do it as long as they did is a matter of opinion.

Whether they gained ongoing and greater benefit from it, is not.

If Jackson Holliday turns out as well as advertised, I would say that we tanked the perfect amount of time. 

[Can_of_corn]

6 hours ago, owknows said:

Actually, the point of the thread was that the top four teams in baseball right now all have payrolls in the bottom third of the league.

And that three of the top four have payrolls in the lowest 4 payrolls.

I found that somewhat remarkable. Surprised that you don't.

In short, my point isn't about my "favourite" team.

It's about the top 4 teams in baseball.

But you knew that. It just didn't fit with your attempt to derail a discussion.

 

Nite.

1- Not really since I didn't reply to your initial post but to a latter post in the thread.

2- if you want to talk about the four teams specifically, I'd say only the Orioles used the "Tank" strategy.  The Pirates are the more old fashioned bad and cheap model and the Brewers and Rays have been doing this for years.

3- As for the payroll stat...it's a mildly interesting statistical blip.

[owknows]

1 hour ago, Can_of_corn said:

1- Not really since I didn't reply to your initial post but to a latter post in the thread.

2- if you want to talk about the four teams specifically, I'd say only the Orioles used the "Tank" strategy.  The Pirates are the more old fashioned bad and cheap model and the Brewers and Rays have been doing this for years.

3- As for the payroll stat...it's a mildly interesting statistical blip.

The fact that that the Brewers and the Rays have been "doing this for years" really doesn't mitigate the fact that they're doing this.

As for the Pirates being "bad and cheap" you may recall that they have the best record in the National League.

Not only are Baltimore, Tampa, Pittsburgh and Milwaukee among the lowest payrolls in baseball.

They are also among the smallest markets.

They are also among the top farm systems.

But I'm sure it's all a mildly interesting statistical blip.

[Bemorewins]

I know that I may be a little late to the party and I only read this page of the thread…

I will say from a fellow fan perspective the tanking was very painful. It actually helped that it was during the pandemic because my attention was elsewhere at times and didn’t have to absorbed the full blow of the O’s suckiness…lol

In hindsight, I am glad that the Orioles tanked though because it got us to a point where we can compete for a championship for multiple seasons, which is all I want as a lifelong fan after 40 seasons of no World Series in Baltimore!

Now as for the cheap part, that is ridiculous! And I will NEVER buy into or be on board with that! The Braves and Astros have rebuilt and sustained multiple years of success and are NOT run that way. Those should be the models. Again, the Rays model is SO UNIQUE to them because it requires the ability to develop ELITE pitching consistently, something no other team has done like them for over 15 years. And I certainly hope that no fan really believes or is putting hope into us being able to do that or even trying to. We spent the last 5 years drafting high end bats/positional players and NO ARMS. That sounds NOTHING like the Rays.

If anybody thinks that the Yankees, Dodgers, Padres, Braves won’t be heard from in the end. And that going cheap continually will consistently beat them, you are in for serious disappointment!

You HAVE to have good players in order to win whether that be from the top of the draft or through FA. This is not magic.

[Sports Guy]

3 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

I know that I may be a little late to the party and I only read this page of the thread…

I will say from a fellow fan perspective the tanking was very painful. It actually helped that it was during the pandemic because my attention was elsewhere at times and didn’t have to absorbed the full blow of the O’s suckiness…lol

In hindsight, I am glad that the Orioles tanked though because it got us to a point where we can compete for a championship for multiple seasons, which is all I want as a lifelong fan after 40 seasons of no World Series in Baltimore!

Now as for the cheap part, that is ridiculous! And I will NEVER buy into or be on board with that! The Braves and Astros have rebuilt and sustained multiple years of success and are NOT run that way. Those should be the models. Again, the Rays model is SO UNIQUE to them because it requires the ability to develop ELITE pitching consistently, something no other team has done like them for over 15 years. And I certainly hope that no fan really believes or is putting hope into us being able to do that or even trying to. We spent the last 5 years drafting high end bats/positional players and NO ARMS. That sounds NOTHING like the Rays.

If anybody thinks that the Yankees, Dodgers, Padres, Braves won’t be heard from in the end. And that going cheap continually will consistently beat them, you are in for serious disappointment!

You HAVE to have good players in order to win whether that be from the top of the draft or through FA. This is not magic.

Tanking is not the reason they could be in position to contend for several years.

[geschinger]

Just now, Sports Guy said:

Tanking is not the reason they could be in position to contend for several years.

Sure it is. If they didn't tank the farm system would be nowhere near what it is now and a great farm system is the catalyst to being in a position to contend.  The Orioles would not / could not have made anywhere near the progress they've made with the significantly fewer draft resources they would have had to work with without tanking. 

Now that they are building out an international presence that is starting to show some promise in the future having fewer draft resources available may be less of an issue for a talent pipeline but that didn't exist at the time.  Tanking is the reason the organization is in a position to contend.   

[Bemorewins]

38 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Tanking is not the reason they could be in position to contend for several years.

It’s part of the reason. It gave us a tremendous increase in the talent pool at the top of the draft for several years running.

Now we had to pick the right players and do a good job developing their talents.

But picking where we did didn’t hurt.