For The Times they are a'Changin

[deward]

1 minute ago, Hank Scorpio said:

The Baltimore Ravens may be at a crossroads with their biggest star player (I legit don't know)... but they are gonna sell out every game regardless. 

I tend to disagree with the 2nd part of your statement but I do respect the discourse. Charlie Brown still tries to kick that friggin' football. The Red Sox and Cubs were beloved by their fanbases forever (though I admittedly do not have the attendance stats to back it up.) 

I think there's a big difference between teams like the Cubs and Red Sox losing due to poor management vs feeling like your team is constantly behind the eight ball due to an inherent payroll disparity relative to the bigger markets. It's kind of a different conversation, but baseball is the only major sport that allows this. Thanks to revenue sharing and a salary cap, a Ravens fan knows that his team is at least on a level playing field with the rest of the league when it comes to payroll. If they move on from Jackson, it will be because the team decides it doesn't make sense from a resource allocation standpoint within the cap, not because they flat out can't afford him. 

[owknows]

4 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

Your approach very much has indifference baked into it. Indifference to me from you is fine. But the Orioles should not be indifferent to their fans. 

The A's treated their fans this way for a long time and now they are moving. I would hate for that to happen to the Orioles because they choose to continually alienate their fans.

The Orioles hired what they considered the best GM in the game. They then set about the task of tanking, accumulating players, building the best farm in baseball, graduating wave 1 of that farm into MLB... building a competitive franchise... and are now in the mix at the top...

You may consider this indifference and alienation .

 

I don't.

[wildcard]

1 hour ago, Going Underground said:

Tampa's model has changed a little. More extensions for players  Akso read if and when they get their new stadium ,they will boost  payroll even higher 

If and when.

[Hank Scorpio]

1 minute ago, Bemorewins said:

Who wouldn't take a World Series here? Especially considering it's been 40 years!

But the problem is that trying to be the Rays means if we get their results, it will be 15+ years and we still won't have one.

I would rather try being the Braves or Astros because in the end we have empirical proof that their way of doing things led to a title. 

I remember Buck saying something about "just getting in" to the playoffs via the play in game. I don't remember the context of the question but believe it was something like is that less than or  whatever... I'm paraphrasing but he said something to the effect of, "You get in and you roll the dice." 

So much of this game is luck. "Any given Sunday" etc... same thing applies to baseball and to a degree all professional sports.

One of those post-seasons, **** is gonna fall the right way. Tampa has had two shots at it. But it's definitely not gonna fall the right way if you're watching in your living room. 

And that's really my beef with the economics of baseball. Just because the big market teams spend hundreds of millions of dollars more than the Rays or the Orioles on payroll doesn't guarantee them anything. Sure as hell improves their margin for error, though.

[Frobby]

1 hour ago, Bemorewins said:

Okay let me ask you a couple of questions:

1) Do you live in this community?

2) Are you a part of the Angelos family or are you a member of the Orioles P/R?

Because what you are advocating for is alienating even more fans. Have you noticed that the Rays have NO FANS? That's because most people fall in love with people... You know like the players on the actual team. If you don't have any stars to market and people don't have any trust that you will retain any of them, people will lose interest in the team.

For younger fans, the names on the back of the shirts MATTER a big deal. Not many people are just going to support the shirts because it's black and orange and says Orioles.

The days of the uniformed fan who just exhibits BLIND LOYALTY to a team are just about over. You have to have plays/stars to market and sell to your fanbase. I know analytics are everything in the game, but there is a HUMAN component to the emotional investment that it requires to be a fan of the team.

I'M ALL THE WAY OUT ON WHAT YOU ARE SELLING! Because this will only truly benefit the pockets of the owner. And I have ABSOLUTELY no interest in rooting for a billion dollar business to make more millions by being cheap.

Interesting thesis that fans won’t go see a perennially good team if they frequently trade their best players and rely on young talent and good role players.  I don’t think that the Tampa example proves or disproves that thesis.

I know this: I’d rather root for that kind of team than a team that perennially sucks, holds on to familiar players too long and has a bloated payroll.  

Just speaking for myself, what I want more than anything else is a team that contends year in and year out.   I really don’t care how they achieve that.  

 

[Can_of_corn]

4 minutes ago, owknows said:

The Orioles hired what they considered the best GM in the game. 

 

What?

Not best candidate looking for a job but best GM in the game?  When he had zero experience in the role.

 

[wildcard]

59 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

I commend you for you optimism, though in many of your post it reads as sort of blind faith, but to each their own.

By almost any knowledgeable analyst/prognosticator of the game; the O's do not currently posses the starting pitching talent to win a World Series. And even mentioning DL Hall... I mean wow! He will be 25 this year and hasn't figured out as of yet how to get out AAA hitters consistently.

I've got some magic Orioles beans I would love to see you if interested...LOL

All my prediction on the O's pitching staff are based in what they have already done.  I am just adding innings as they develop.

You need to keep up.  Hall just pitched 5 innings and allowed 2 earned runs on 85 pitches at AAA,  He is 24 year old.   He is being stretched out and from my perspective is changing the way he is pitching.   Its not all max effort the way it was.  Its focusing more on command.   Stay tuned, he has to show he can sustain it.

Edited April 24, 2023 by wildcard

[Can_of_corn]

8 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Interesting thesis that fans won’t go see a perennially good team if they frequently trade their best players and rely on young talent and good role players.  I don’t think that the Tampa example proves or disproves that thesis.

I know this: I’d rather root for that kind of team than a team that perennially sucks, holds on to familiar players too long and has a bloated payroll.  

Just speaking for myself, what I want more than anything else is a team that contends year in and year out.   I really don’t care how they achieve that.  

 

I live near Tampa.  Roster turnover isn't a major driver for the low attendance.

[owknows]

11 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

What?

Not best candidate looking for a job but best GM in the game?  When he had zero experience in the role.

 

Sorry to make you clutch your pearls... but yeah... best GM in the game.

 

[Hank Scorpio]

13 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

I live near Tampa.  Roster turnover isn't a major driver for the low attendance.

Right... it's the miserable stadium, inaccessibility of that miserable stadium, and generally transient population. 

 

[Hank Scorpio]

5 minutes ago, owknows said:

Sorry to make you clutch your pearls... but yeah... best GM in the game.

 

I doubt if anyone asked who the best GM in the game was in 2018 the answer from anyone would have been Mike Elias. 

[deward]

9 minutes ago, owknows said:

Sorry to make you clutch your pearls... but yeah... best GM in the game.

 

The 2012-2016 O's won the most games in the AL, made the playoffs three times, won a division title, and went to the ALCS once. I'd prefer to give Elias the chance to prove he can top that (admittedly not super-high) bar before I anoint him.

[Sydnor]

4 hours ago, owknows said:

The fact that that the Brewers and the Rays have been "doing this for years" really doesn't mitigate the fact that they're doing this.

As for the Pirates being "bad and cheap" you may recall that they have the best record in the National League.

Not only are Baltimore, Tampa, Pittsburgh and Milwaukee among the lowest payrolls in baseball.

They are also among the smallest markets.

They are also among the top farm systems.

But I'm sure it's all a mildly interesting statistical blip.

If we’re going to mention records on April 24, we should also acknowledge that by the sites that measure strength of schedule, the Pirates, Orioles, and Rays have had 3 of the 5 easiest schedules through April 24. As many others have said, it’s way too early to draw any conclusions.

With respect to spending, I’ll acknowledge that I wanted to add pitching. In another month, we might be lamenting that the team didn’t add pitching. I know everyone is excited about the recent run by the starters, but Oakland, Washington, Chicago, and Detroit are currently 4 of the 10 worst offenses by WRC+ and wOBA.

I also was hoping for an extension or 2 for a key player, which I think is what most people were hoping for this off-season when you look at some of the threads. My primary goal, which I think @deward or @Sports Guy brought up at some point in this thread is to draft (or sign internationally), develop, and retain. Obviously not everyone can or should be kept, but I think it is the front office’s job to identify the right players to retain. If we take Eve Rosenbaum at her word, the Orioles have “an entire department” devoted to figuring out who should be kept and figuring out how to keep them. Stuff like the Ohtani trade/sign discussions are just for fun. I don’t think anybody here realistically expects them to do something like that. 

 

[owknows]

7 minutes ago, Sydnor said:

it’s way too early to draw any conclusions.

Yes, I have said this myself in the thread.

In the original post, and several times thereafter.

But I still find it interesting that the low payroll teams are currently the best teams in baseball.

Even though it is obviously early.

 

[Sydnor]

3 minutes ago, owknows said:

Yes, I have said this myself in the thread.

In the original post, and several times thereafter.

But I still find it interesting that the low payroll teams are currently the best teams in baseball.

Even though it is obviously early.

 

Right, but you didn’t acknowledge the level of competition that these teams have played and that I acknowledged that so you didn’t copy even a full sentence from my post.