What's the Best 9/Best Lineup When Ced Comes Back?

[ChuckS]

O'Hearn and Hicks are hot right now.  History tells us, they will come back down to earth.  Nice reserve players to have.  I wouldn't bank on either of them being entrenched in the starting lineup in two months. 

[Matt Bennett]

1 hour ago, Sports Guy said:

Adley, Ortiz, Westburg, Gunnar, Mullins, Hays, Santander and Cowser.

Last spot is between RM and ROH…for now

Pretty harsh on Urias no? He’s good with the glove and bat and I don’t think he’s played himself into a reserve role like Mateo and Frazier. He’s in my top 9 but agree with everyone else. 

[Sports Guy]

7 minutes ago, Matt Bennett said:

Pretty harsh on Urias no? He’s good with the glove and bat and I don’t think he’s played himself into a reserve role like Mateo and Frazier. He’s in my top 9 but agree with everyone else. 

I really like Urias…he would still play 4-5 times a week rotating around the IF and DH.

Edited June 13, 2023 by Sports Guy

[deward]

12 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

I really like Urias…he would still play 4-5 times a week rotating around the IF and DH.

I would flip the roles of Urias and Westburg until Westburg proves he can out-hit Urias.

[interloper]

I want Cowser and Westburg up as much as the next guy, but it's wild that folks think they would immediately succeed at hitting enough to be "the best" lineup. It takes guys like 2 months to figure it out, unless you're Adley. 

[The Goob]

22 minutes ago, interloper said:

I want Cowser and Westburg up as much as the next guy, but it's wild that folks think they would immediately succeed at hitting enough to be "the best" lineup. It takes guys like 2 months to figure it out, unless you're Adley. 

I agree with this and it is why I think any thought of the Orioles having Henderson, Cowser, Ortiz and Westburg all in the lineup regularly rigth now is just not realistic.  Having 4 rookies in your regular lineup does not really have sense.  Given the time it takes for them to adjust adding all three of those guys to Henderson right now would likely be difficult.  It is why waiting so long to bring up one of Westburg / Cowser is so frustrating.  If one had come up a month or so ago and had time to adjust you could bring up the other now and give him time to adjust.

When Mullins is back I would go with the following:

CF - Mullins

3B - Henderson

C- Rutschman

DH - Santander

LF - Hays

2B - Urias

1B - Mountcastle / O'Hearn - based on starting pitcher

RF - Cowser / Hicks - have them split time to ease Cowser on board and ride Hick while he is hot

SS - Mateo

 

I really want to add Westburg in the near term but the trouble I had is I don't think you should move Henderson from 3B.  I would not do anything to disrupt his hot streak right now and Urias or Westburg at SS is not a long term defensive option.  I really wish the Orioles had put Westburg at 1B in AAA all season and got him ready because that is where I think he fits best.  By the end of the year I would love to see this lineup.

CF - Mullins

3B - Henderson

C - Rutschman

DH - Santander

LF - Hays

RF - Cowser

1B - Westburg / Mountcastle - with both also getting some time at DH when Santander is in RF or off

2B - Urias / Westburg

SS - Ortiz

 

 

 

Edited June 13, 2023 by The Goob

[Sports Guy]

24 minutes ago, interloper said:

I want Cowser and Westburg up as much as the next guy, but it's wild that folks think they would immediately succeed at hitting enough to be "the best" lineup. It takes guys like 2 months to figure it out, unless you're Adley. 

First of all, that’s a complete fallacy that isn’t backed by any stats. It takes SOME, maybe even most guys time to figure it out.  But some guys come up and hit right away or at least hold their own.

On top of that, it’s who/what they are replacing..not exactly players ripping the cover off the ball.

And the one thing that no one seems to want to talk about is how the defense will likely improve, which of course helps the pitching.

Edited June 13, 2023 by Sports Guy

[interloper]

2 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

First of all, that’s a complete fallacy that isn’t backed by any stats. It takes SOMe, maybe even most guys time to figure it out.  But some guys come up and hit right away or at least hold their own.

On top of that, it’s who/what they are replacing..not exactly players ripping the cover off the ball.

And the one thing that no one seems to want to talk about is how the defense will likely improve, which of course helps the pitching.

Sure, I think all these guys can definitely help. I just feel like we need to see them before we can say they belong in a "best" lineup. We definitely hope so. I think it's fair to say Oritz and Westburg over Mateo would be in a best lineup, offensively speaking. I'm less convinced of Ortiz/Westburg over Urias. 

[Sports Guy]

Just now, interloper said:

Sure, I think all these guys can definitely help. I just feel like we need to see them before we can say they belong in a "best" lineup. We definitely hope so. I think it's fair to say Oritz and Westburg over Mateo would be in a best lineup, offensively speaking. I'm less convinced of Ortiz/Westburg over Urias. 

You aren’t replacing Urias though. He would still get the same number of at bats, especially if he can handle first.

You are basically replacing Frazier and Mateo although they would still have roles.

[Frobby]

46 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

First of all, that’s a complete fallacy that isn’t backed by any stats. It takes SOME, maybe even most guys time to figure it out.  But some guys come up and hit right away or at least hold their own.

On top of that, it’s who/what they are replacing..not exactly players ripping the cover off the ball.

And the one thing that no one seems to want to talk about is how the defense will likely improve, which of course helps the pitching.

I think it’s definitely most guys who take a while to adjust to the majors, but it’s obviously not everyone.  Tell it to Ryan Noda or Matt McLain.

[Matt Bennett]

1 hour ago, interloper said:

I want Cowser and Westburg up as much as the next guy, but it's wild that folks think they would immediately succeed at hitting enough to be "the best" lineup. It takes guys like 2 months to figure it out, unless you're Adley. 

Could you please point to some examples on this Orioles team who struggled for two months upon their debut and then hit their stride? 

1. Adley had a bad….2 weeks? And has since been the best catcher in baseball

2. Mountcastle raked immediately. 

3. Urias had a good week or 2 upon debuting, struggled for a week or 2 to start 2021, and has since been a valuable contributor. 

4. Henderson raked immediately upon arrival. He did go through a “sophomore slump” where his OBP was in the mid .300’s and OPS+ was at 100 at times. 

5. Among outsiders: Frazier and O’Hearn had very impressive 1-2 month rookie debuts

6. Mateo and McKenna have never hit well

7. Stowers performed well in his debut before struggling through sporadic playing time and having an atrocious week before getting demoted again 

8. Perhaps there is some evidence among our outfielders who made their debuts when the organization was poorly run and talent starved? Although:

• Hays was in Aberdeen to the majors within 3 months

• Santander was plucked straight from A+ ball in the Rule V

• Dropping switch hitting was a significant catalyst to Mullins’ ascent.

9. To include some 2022 Orioles in the conversation: Mancini hit the ground running immediately. Rookie DJ Stewart was the guy as Career DJ Stewart. Rookie Rougned Odor was the same guy as young 20’s Career Rougned Odor. Richie Martin & Tyler Nevin could never hit. 

I’m just not seeing this 2 month adjustment period so many OH posters are claiming as fact. And Westburg and Cowser have obtained a prospect status and sustained AAA success that aren’t common. 

[interloper]

1 minute ago, Matt Bennett said:

Could you please point to some examples on this Orioles team who struggled for two months upon their debut and then hit their stride? 

1. Adley had a bad….2 weeks? And has since been the best catcher in baseball

2. Mountcastle raked immediately. 

3. Urias had a good week or 2 upon debuting, struggled for a week or 2 to start 2021, and has since been a valuable contributor. 

4. Henderson raked immediately upon arrival. He did go through a “sophomore slump” where his OBP was in the mid .300’s and OPS+ was at 100 at times. 

5. Among outsiders: Frazier and O’Hearn had very impressive 1-2 month rookie debuts

6. Mateo and McKenna have never hit well

7. Stowers performed well in his debut before struggling through sporadic playing time and having an atrocious week before getting demoted again 

8. Perhaps there is some evidence among our outfielders who made their debuts when the organization was poorly run and talent starved? Although:

• Hays was in Aberdeen to the majors within 3 months

• Santander was plucked straight from A+ ball in the Rule V

• Dropping switch hitting was a significant catalyst to Mullins’ ascent.

9. To include some 2022 Orioles in the conversation: Mancini hit the ground running immediately. Rookie DJ Stewart was the guy as Career DJ Stewart. Rookie Rougned Odor was the same guy as young 20’s Career Rougned Odor. Richie Martin & Tyler Nevin could never hit. 

I’m just not seeing this 2 month adjustment period so many OH posters are claiming as fact. And Westburg and Cowser have obtained a prospect status and sustained AAA success that aren’t common. 

Perhaps the 2 month thing isn't as much of a thing as I assume, so fair post by you. Although a minor quibble - while Mountcastle did hit in his August/Sept debut in 2020, he struggled for April and May of 2021 before posting a 1.000+ OPS in June of that year. 

I think #6 is your best point - some of these guys on the ML team just haven't hit great anyway so you might as well try new guys. 

I think for me it's Cowser I worry about most with the transition. He's shown at every level that he starts slow before figuring it out, and the OF is much more established than, say, 2B/SS. But don't get me wrong, I'm 1,000% in favor of calling these guys up. 

In the spirit of the thread, here's my best lineup when Mullins comes back:

Mullins - CF
Adley - C
Santander - RF
Hays - LF
Henderson - 3B
Urias - 2B
O'Hearn/Hicks - DH
Mountcastle - 1B
Ortiz - SS

I'm ready to say that Oritz is better than Mateo right now, in all things not speed-related. I'd like to see Cowser get mixed in slowly and hopefully supplant Mountcastle in that lineup, with someone sliding to 1B. I'd like to see the same for Westburg, but I see less of a spot for right now until there's an injury or trade. 

[Orioles0615]

Mullins

Adley 

Henderson

Santander

Hays

O'Hearn

Urias

Westburg 

Cowser

[sportsfan8703]

11 hours ago, ScGO's said:

...and if Hicks is real. What's the best 9?

 

Mountcastle is being pushed by OHearn right now for sure.  I like Frazier, and he'll get his time, but Urias and Gunnar are starting to heat up. Mateo is probably our SS for now bc he's a GG, but his 77 OPS+ is rough and Westburg could force his way up if Mateo becomes a black hole in the line up while everyone else has an OPS+ above 100. Westburg bumps Mateo only if Elias and Hyde feel comfortable with Gunnar at SS.  Mateo would become super utility (SS/OF)

Ced - CF

Hicks - LF

Adley - C

Santander - DH

Gunnar - SS

Hays -RF

OHearn - 1B

Urias - 3B

Westburg- 2B

Bench: McCann, Frazier, Mateo, Mountcastle

 

I think the OP pegged it. I was thinking Gunnar 3rd and Hicks 5th, but it’s the same thing. Westburg has earned to get ABs in our 5 man infield rotation. Cowser could be called up, but that would bump O’Hearn with Cowser in RF, Santander at 1B, and Hicks at DH. 

[sportsfan8703]

11 hours ago, Frobby said:

Hicks may be a useful reserve if we’re lucky.  He’s not going to be a starting OF.

I like the ABs Hicks consistently gives us. In some strange turn of events… maybe Hicks is our Carlos Beltran that the young Astros team had.