Grade our two deadline moves

[Fiver6565]

It cracks me up that in the same thread we have people moaning that we should have been willing to give up what it was going to take for someone better than Flaherty, but also moaning about how much we gave up for Flaherty. What do people think was going to be the cost for ERod or Cease if Flaherty cost what he cost?  People are up in arms that we gave up a developmental HS pitcher. SMH  

 

[Moose Milligan]

I know that he had the possibility of being a two-way player.  Extremely athletic.  So if it didn't work out for him as a pitcher, maybe he could have been a position player somewhere.  At Delmarva he was doing well, averaging more than a K per inning.  He played CF in high school.  

It's not a slam on Tony when I say this, but quite frankly I don't care that he wasn't in Tony's Top 30.  For a system that's highly touted but is relatively starved for pitching, I didn't like giving him up for what might be a rental.  I also don't care if there are other prospects at Delmarva that could be viewed as better.  That's not the point.

The point is that I think trading Prieto and Rom was enough for a guy who's sporting a 1.55 WHIP and a 97 ERA+ this year.  Flaherty was once looked at as a great pitching prospect and he was elite in 2019.  He no longer is and I'm assuming that Elias and Sig are banking on that they'll be able to tease a better performance out of him once he arrives.  I'm not quite sure if the Flaherty acquisition moves the needle for us much at all, but it allows us to put some guys in the bullpen which is awesome, I guess.

Like I said, I thought Prieto and Rom was enough.  

[Sports Guy]

3 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

I know that he had the possibility of being a two-way player.  Extremely athletic.  So if it didn't work out for him as a pitcher, maybe he could have been a position player somewhere.  At Delmarva he was doing well, averaging more than a K per inning.  He played CF in high school.  

It's not a slam on Tony when I say this, but quite frankly I don't care that he wasn't in Tony's Top 30.  For a system that's highly touted but is relatively starved for pitching, I didn't like giving him up for what might be a rental.  I also don't care if there are other prospects at Delmarva that could be viewed as better.  That's not the point.

The point is that I think trading Prieto and Rom was enough for a guy who's sporting a 1.55 WHIP and a 97 ERA+ this year.  Flaherty was once looked at as a great pitching prospect and he was elite in 2019.  He no longer is and I'm assuming that Elias and Sig are banking on that they'll be able to tease a better performance out of him once he arrives.  I'm not quite sure if the Flaherty acquisition moves the needle for us much at all, but it allows us to put some guys in the bullpen which is awesome, I guess.

Like I said, I thought Prieto and Rom was enough.  

You thought wrong.

[Moose Milligan]

Just now, Sports Guy said:

You thought wrong.

Oh well.

[Fiver6565]

2 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

I know that he had the possibility of being a two-way player.  Extremely athletic.  So if it didn't work out for him as a pitcher, maybe he could have been a position player somewhere.  At Delmarva he was doing well, averaging more than a K per inning.  He played CF in high school.  

It's not a slam on Tony when I say this, but quite frankly I don't care that he wasn't in Tony's Top 30.  For a system that's highly touted but is relatively starved for pitching, I didn't like giving him up for what might be a rental.  I also don't care if there are other prospects at Delmarva that could be viewed as better.  That's not the point.

The point is that I think trading Prieto and Rom was enough for a guy who's sporting a 1.55 WHIP and a 97 ERA+ this year.  Flaherty was once looked at as a great pitching prospect and he was elite in 2019.  He no longer is and I'm assuming that Elias and Sig are banking on that they'll be able to tease a better performance out of him once he arrives.  I'm not quite sure if the Flaherty acquisition moves the needle for us much at all, but it allows us to put some guys in the bullpen which is awesome, I guess.

Like I said, I thought Prieto and Rom was enough.  

But trading Prieto and Rom was clearly not enough. Do you think Elias just volunteered to throw in Showalter without the Cards insistence on it?

Honest question, no snark - would you rather have Flaherty, or have torched the deal because you refuse to include Showalter?  Because those are almost certainly the two options Elias had. Imagine the black lash if no deal got done for anyone. 

[25 Nuggets]

7 minutes ago, Fiver6565 said:

It cracks me up that in the same thread we have people moaning that we should have been willing to give up what it was going to take for someone better than Flaherty, but also moaning about how much we gave up for Flaherty. What do people think was going to be the cost for ERod or Cease if Flaherty cost what he cost?  People are up in arms that we gave up a developmental HS pitcher. SMH  

 

Certainly happier giving up mid prospects for Flaherty than top prospects for a higher profile rental.

Somebody like Civale with three more years of control?  Different story.

[Sports Guy]

2 minutes ago, Fiver6565 said:

But trading Prieto and Rom was clearly not enough. Do you think Elias just volunteered to throw in Showalter without the Cards insistence on it?

Honest question, no snark - would you rather have Flaherty, or have torched the deal because you refuse to include Showalter?  Because those are almost certainly the two options Elias had. Imagine the black lash if no deal got done for anyone. 

I think what he is saying is that Elias should have held out and not included Showalter.

[Moose Milligan]

8 minutes ago, Fiver6565 said:

It cracks me up that in the same thread we have people moaning that we should have been willing to give up what it was going to take for someone better than Flaherty, but also moaning about how much we gave up for Flaherty. What do people think was going to be the cost for ERod or Cease if Flaherty cost what he cost?  People are up in arms that we gave up a developmental HS pitcher. SMH  

 

Because if you hit on a "developmental HS pitcher" the rewards can be really nice.

I don't think anyone here is saying you shouldn't have to give up quality to get quality, which seems to be the argument you're trying to make.  

I would have preferred going after E-Rod or Cease if we had to get a starter.  And I'm aware that it would have cost more to get one of those guys, but I also believe that either one of those guys would have given us a better performance over someone who's been below average for 3 out of the last 4 seasons.  

But yeah, throw in a guy like Showalter for a guy like E-Rod or Cease.  Hell, take another of his Delmarva teammates, too, they can ride together.  

[tntoriole]

4 minutes ago, Fiver6565 said:

But trading Prieto and Rom was clearly not enough. Do you think Elias just volunteered to throw in Showalter without the Cards insistence on it?

Honest question, no snark - would you rather have Flaherty, or have torched the deal because you refuse to include Showalter?  Because those are almost certainly the two options Elias had. Imagine the black lash if no deal got done for anyone. 

You wonder if the third guy was from a pool of several offered up by Elias  .. i.e pick one of these to add in at your choice 

[tntoriole]

5 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

I think what he is saying is that Elias should have held out and not included Showalter.

Held out till like 10 minutes from the deadline? 
 

in fact, it probably got leaked out prematurely as just two guys because literally the last guy was not decided on till after it had already been leaked 

Edited August 2, 2023 by tntoriole

[Moose Milligan]

5 minutes ago, Fiver6565 said:

But trading Prieto and Rom was clearly not enough. Do you think Elias just volunteered to throw in Showalter without the Cards insistence on it?

Honest question, no snark - would you rather have Flaherty, or have torched the deal because you refuse to include Showalter?  Because those are almost certainly the two options Elias had. Imagine the black lash if no deal got done for anyone. 

So you're saying you'd have made a deal just to have made it to avoid backlash?  That sounds like a winning strategy.

No, I don't think Elias volunteered to throw in Showalter, I'm assuming he gave the Cardinals a list of prospects he'd have been willing to part with and told them to pick one.  

I've said all along, I wanted legit bullpen help.  A Robertson, a Chapman, someone like that.  Fuji is a good start, but I think we needed more.  People are acting like being able to shuffle in Wells and Hall into the bullpen is a big win for us; I'm not so sure.  

I'm glad you're excited about Flaherty.  I personally don't see how he moves the needle for us all that much but I'd love to be wrong (a very real possibility considering how scrap heap pickups like O'Hearn have performed under Elias).

[Moose Milligan]

8 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

I think what he is saying is that Elias should have held out and not included Showalter.

I'm saying I'd be happy to part with a guy like Showalter if we went after a bigger fish than Flaherty.

 

[tntoriole]

It is pretty clear Elias could have said no obviously to the package but I don’t think he would have been successful sticking to just the two.   And if he had given St Louis several to pick from as the third option, then obviously he couldn’t really say no when they accepted. 

[Flash- bd]

Clear A for me. 

Gave up very little of note and got two important players for our stretch run. Grade will only be wrong if Flaherty isn't better with us than St. Louis but given our track record with acquisitions I am pretty confident we'll do the right thing to get good results. 

[interloper]

I like the two moves, no complaints about them at all. 

I just find it wild that we couldn't add another bullpen arm somehow. The Mets didn't trade Raley which is kind of crazy to me. 

That said, I totally buy the concept that teams fixated on our top 10, and that being an unintended downside of having a great farm system. Our #5 prospect completely blows most teams' #5 prospects out of the water, but teams are still going to try to equate them and ask for that guy. When really it's like, this other team is offering you their #5 prospect, the equivalent for us is our #13. I'm sure that was super annoying for Elias and team to deal with. 

Edited August 2, 2023 by interloper