Ben Clemens of Fangraphs: Orioles-losers at the trade deadline

[Hallas]

17 minutes ago, sportsfan8703 said:

The same writers that thought we were losers because we didn't get Verlander, also don't know that Verlander is owed $96 million through 2025.

If we were perfect matches for Verlander, just wait till the offseason with Ohtani.  

 

Houston isn't paying that, because Cohen decided to throw them a boatload of cash in exchange for actual prospects.  So Houston is on the hook for only like 21 million if the option doesn't vest, and 29 million if it does.

Edited August 2, 2023 by Hallas

[O's84]

I was not thrilled about Flaherty but if we had gotten a quality reliever I would have been okay with it.  I guess time will tell.  The offseason will be an interesting time as the Orioles will be ready by anyone's standards  to compete for a title.  Thus some pitching will be essential to be acquired.

[sportsfan8703]

7 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

What wait??? What does Dylan Cease have to do with whether or not Flaherty outperforms Verlander or Scherzer for the rest of the season? What does 2014 when not a single player from the Orioles was on the team have to do with 2023?

I'm VERY confused.

Verlander and Scherzer were the top two pitchers traded.  Cease wasn't.  2014 is relevant because Verlander and Scherzer remember the beating they took in OPACY in the playoffs.  

[TheWall]

Why are we talking about Verlander? He wasn't a realistic option. Reports were that he only wanted to lift his no-trade clause for Houston and potentially LA. 

[sportsfan8703]

We also lost the offseason because we didn't sign these guys

Rodon - hurt

DeGrom - hurt

Bassit - 4 ERA

Eovaldi - hurt

Wacha - hurt

Taillon - 5.46 ERA

Anderson - 5 ERA

Kluber - 7 ERA

I can't wait until we lose next offseason too.  

[O's84]

One last thing.  People defending Elias for not doing more because of the cost.  Elias said he took "some very big swings".  If those had connected, I wonder if some of those defenders would now be criticizing Elias for giving up too much.  Just my two cents.

[Bemorewins]

5 minutes ago, sportsfan8703 said:

Verlander and Scherzer were the top two pitchers traded.  Cease wasn't.  2014 is relevant because Verlander and Scherzer remember the beating they took in OPACY in the playoffs.  

Why would they care about that? They are not going to face a similar player that they faced then. The manager, GM, and none of the coaches are they same. Heck our stadium is a lot different than it was then. And they are on completely different teams and different situations with different teammates. The only thing that is the same between now and then is the color of the laundry of their opponent.

I know/assume that you already know all of this. 

So I hope that you can kind of see where I am coming from to conclude that your point was a very strained connection.

I think it’s great that you are passionate and confident. But when you bring up irrelevant/unconnected points when responding to a question, it’s kind of confusing.

The point that was made was that Flaherty is going to be better than Scherzer and Verlander. I said it was a bold statement and that I hope so. Then you chime in with something that happened from the 2014 season.

[24fps]

23 minutes ago, Gurgi said:

I saw a quote that Chicago demanded Jackson Holiday for Cease and never moved off that demand.  Hard to deal if teams are thinking now is the time to pluck the Orioles for talent.  

I wouldn't be surprised if Elias encountered a lot of exorbitant demands from GM's who refused to actually negotiate their position.  I think the offseason will be a better time to trade for long-term pitching solutions, and maybe Elias has sent a message that he expects actual value in return for any top 10 guy under discussion.

I hope so anyway.

[Bemorewins]

6 minutes ago, O's84 said:

One last thing.  People defending Elias for not doing more because of the cost.  Elias said he took "some very big swings".  If those had connected, I wonder if some of those defenders would now be criticizing Elias for giving up too much.  Just my two cents.

I don’t believe that most/many would. From what I have seen/read on this board in 2023. The overwhelming majority is an echo chamber who believes/trust in Elias to a large degree. 

IMO no matter what he does right now, he will have the support of most of this board.

[Say O!]

1 minute ago, O's84 said:

One last thing.  People defending Elias for not doing more because of the cost.  Elias said he took "some very big swings".  If those had connected, I wonder if some of those defenders would now be criticizing Elias for giving up too much.  Just my two cents.

I take the 5pm Flaherty move to indicate that was last minute fall back option bc Elias didn’t catch potentially bigger fish (ERod, Cease, one of SEA starters, Snell, etc).

Given that,

1/ Flaherty was probably best get out there

2/ depending on your view of Montgomery,  but perhaps Elias was confident in getting the bigger fish (maybe could quibble with mis-calculation of the dynamic market)

3/ these bigger fish could be caught in the off-season for better prices

 

[ledzepp8]

12 minutes ago, O's84 said:

One last thing.  People defending Elias for not doing more because of the cost.  Elias said he took "some very big swings".  If those had connected, I wonder if some of those defenders would now be criticizing Elias for giving up too much.  Just my two cents.

I read that quote as him saying that they were attempting to get the "bigger" names on the market but the asking price was a non starter.

[Sports Guy]

Basically, these articles are saying that the Os should have done what it took to make a massive rotation upgrade. 
 

Some merit to that. 
 

Problem is, that massive upgrade didn’t exist this deadline outside of maybe Cease and there is/was plenty of reason to doubt just how much of an upgrade he was/is over what was out there for a lot less cost, prospect wise.

Edited August 2, 2023 by Sports Guy

[O's84]

4 minutes ago, sportsfan8703 said:

We also lost the offseason because we didn't sign these guys

Rodon - hurt

DeGrom - hurt

Bassit - 4 ERA

Eovaldi - hurt

Wacha - hurt

Taillon - 5.46 ERA

Anderson - 5 ERA

Kluber - 7 ERA

I can't wait until we lose next offseason too.  

I don't think most people wanted most of those guys.  Rodon was too expensive and injury prone.  DeGrom, even more so and nobody here was agreeing with the thought of signing him through age 39.  Wacha, Taillon, and Kluber drew little enthusiasm from people here.  I don't recall about Anderson.  Bassitt was a reasonable target and would have been an upgrade.  Eovaldi was really good but got hurt recently. He should be back soon.  Those are two who drew interest by OH'ers here.  After that there's the trade market which is where we'll have to operate this offseason because of JA's penny pinching ways.

[Moose Milligan]

Fangraphs constant navel-gazing and desire to be the smartest baseball guys on the internet is one of the reasons I don't like their site.

I don't love the Flaherty trade but I can see why some like it.  I certainly don't think we were losers.

[Sports Guy]

If you want to bash the team for a non move, it’s Chapman.

If you want to bash them for the state of the rotation, you go back to the offseason(and not just this past one)

But the Flaherty deal was a good one.