Jackson Holliday 2024

[banks703]

1 minute ago, Can_of_corn said:

If the choice is between OAA and

I'll take OAA.

How much have you seen Mayo play at third?

Just as much as I've seen JH. I see a lot of affiliate games. 

[Sports Guy]

6 minutes ago, banks703 said:

I've been extremely consistent with my opinion of the kid since he was drafted and we've had our debates and back and forth about it. With respect to what we have disagreed upon, I've been pretty spot-on about what I've posted about him as a player whereas your arguments always just go back to that he was drafted as a SS so he must be a SS or you resort to ad hominem. 

You have been right that his arm isn’t currently strong enough to play SS. Thats true to an extent.

What else have you argued that is differing?

Edited July 22 by Sports Guy

[banks703]

5 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

You have been right that his arm isn’t currently strong enough to play SS. Thats true to an extent.

What else have you argued that is differing?

 

 

 

Edited July 22 by banks703

[Frobby]

17 minutes ago, Malike said:

Holliday was +3 OAA in his time on the big league club at 2B. Jordan Westburg is -6 OAA at 2B, but yes, that post you responded to was right. Westburg is going to be the far superior 2B defensively lol. Unreal.

I don’t trust that +3 OAA AT ALL.  Rtot and Rdrs had him at 0, UZR had him at -0.2.   I think his fielding in AAA has been worse than in the majors, as he’s made 10 errors there but didn’t make any in his short major league tenure.   

[Sports Guy]

4 minutes ago, banks703 said:

 

 

 

No no..im asking. Where you and I have differed is that you don’t think he will ever be a good defender at SS…ever.

I disagree with that.

Your whole argument is based around his arm.

[Sports Guy]

4 minutes ago, Frobby said:

I don’t trust that +3 OAA AT ALL.  Rtot and Rdrs had him at 0, UZR had him at -0.2.   I think his fielding in AAA has been worse than in the majors, as he’s made 10 errors there but didn’t make any in his short major league tenure.   

How has his range been in AAA? How he has been at turning double plays? Is he getting to balls others aren’t?  

[banks703]

Just now, Sports Guy said:

No no..im asking. Where you and I have differed is that you don’t think he will ever be a good defender at SS…ever.

I disagree with that.

Your whole argument is based around his arm.

It isn't. I've made lots of comments about other parts of his defense. They're in my post history. You can find them. 

[Frobby]

1 minute ago, Sports Guy said:

How has his range been in AAA? How he has been at turning double plays? Is he getting to balls others aren’t?  

Beats the hell out of me.  That why I said “I think” his defense has been worse in AAA than the majors.  I definitely don’t KNOW it.  

[Sports Guy]

12 minutes ago, banks703 said:

It isn't. I've made lots of comments about other parts of his defense. They're in my post history. You can find them. 

Ok fine..whatever. The point is that you are making this grand proclamation of “how right you have been” and the reality is that you are completely discounting basic scouting things, which makes so much of your point irrelevant to me.

Even Tony, who shares your doubts, has said “unless he gets stronger physically” (or something along those lines), he doesn’t see him at SS.

Thats my issue with your stance. You are providing zero room for improvement and quite frankly, that makes your point foolish.

I’ll give you credit for raising doubt about him when others weren’t necessarily doing that…but the total discounting of him getting better will always make your opinion completely worthless to me.

Now I know you don’t care about that but you can at least understand that I really don’t care what you have to say on the matter. 

Edited July 22 by Sports Guy

[Sports Guy]

2 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Beats the hell out of me.  That why I said “I think” his defense has been worse in AAA than the majors.  I definitely don’t KNOW it.  

But yet you discount numbers and bring up the errors even though you don’t really know the origin of how the errors came about or if/how the elbow has hurt things.

[Frobby]

What number am I discounting?  To be clear, my doubts about his major league OAA have nothing to do with his MiL performance.  They have to do with the fact that every other advanced metric disagrees, and what I witnessed watching him play.  I refer to his MiL errors there only as evidence that he has done worse in the minors than the majors defensively.  If advanced stats existed at the MiL level I’d use them. 

[CaptainRedbeard]

11 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

Yeah, I liked the idea of Mayo at 3B and Holliday maybe in CF but I was just coming around to the realization that Westburg at 3B and Holliday at 2B was the best future alignment which would make one of Basallo, Mayo, or Kjerstad more tradeable.    I have more confidence in Holliday as a 2B than Mayo as a 3B moving forward and Westburg looks better at 3B.

Especially with Cowser doing so well defensively this year and looking capable of being the starting CF for at least the next few years, the Holliday to CF option is looking less likely. And after drafting Honeycutt and Overn to add to Bradfield and the other CF options in the system, I think Holliday is going to stay at 2B.

Mayo could still be a part time 3B for Gunnar/Westburg/Holliday rest/DH days, and that would still be valuable. But I think his future with the Orioles is primarily as a 1B. And that’s fine! They need a long term 1B too and his bat incredible. Even if he’s purely a 1B/DH, I think he’s more valuable than Crochet, but I do think that puts him on the table and not on the “untouchable” list for Skubal. 

[Sports Guy]

3 minutes ago, Frobby said:

What number am I discounting?  To be clear, my doubts about his major league OAA have nothing to do with his MiL performance.  They have to do with the fact that every other advanced metric disagrees, and what I witnessed watching him play.  I refer to his MiL errors there only as evidence that he has done worse in the minors than the majors defensively.  If advanced stats existed at the MiL level I’d use them. 

Errors don’t mean he has done worse.  It’s also an obvious much larger sample size.

[banks703]

6 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Ok fine..whatever. The point is that you are making this grand proclamation of “how right you have been” and the reality is that you are completely discounting basic scouting things, which makes so much of your point irrelevant to me.

Even Tony, who shares your doubts, has said “unless he gets stronger physically” (or something along those lines), he doesn’t see him at SS.

Thats my issue with your stance. You are providing zero room for improvement and quite frankly, that makes you a complete fool.

I’ll give you credit for raising doubt about him when others weren’t necessarily doing that…but the total discounting of him getting better will always make your opinion completely worthless to me.

Now I know you don’t care about that but you can at least understand that I really don’t care what you have to say on the matter. 

I've not once ever suggested that he wouldn't get better. You're legitimately making that up in your head or purposely ignoring the posts that I've made when I have stated that he, in fact, would get better.

I've always stated that he would not kill you defensively (specifically at SS) but that he would never be the best option there at the ML level. That is how I have described his prospects as a defensive SS from the day that they drafted him. And I continue to stand by the idea that he may end up in the OF. 

[Sports Guy]

5 minutes ago, banks703 said:

I've not once ever suggested that he wouldn't get better. You're legitimately making that up in your head or purposely ignoring the posts that I've made when I have stated that he, in fact, would get better.

I've always stated that he would not kill you defensively (specifically at SS) but that he would never be the best option there at the ML level. That is how I have described his prospects as a defensive SS from the day that they drafted him. And I continue to stand by the idea that he may end up in the OF. 

First of all, I edited my post. I originally said you are a complete fool in that post. That’s not what I meant to say and I re-worded it.  So, I apologize for that comment.

Now, back to the post..you have 100% said he will never be good defensively at SS.  In one post you will say he could get better and then in another post you will say, he never will. 100% you have said that.