Is Holliday the most important player in 2025?

[Hallas]

I'm going with Adley.  There's just no replacement for a 5 WAR catcher.  We can kind of make something work with 2B between Urias and Westburg and a random castoff like Rivera.

[Rbiggs2525]

Yes to Holliday. He seems to be our only hope at a premium contact bat. You can’t have all these strikeout guys hitting back to back moving forward. 1,3,,4,5,6 all strikeout a ton. 

[HowAboutThat]

Holliday, Kjersted, Mayo, should all be on the block.

[Aristotelian]

3 minutes ago, Rbiggs2525 said:

Yes to Holliday. He seems to be our only hope at a premium contact bat. You can’t have all these strikeout guys hitting back to back moving forward. 1,3,,4,5,6 all strikeout a ton. 

Holliday literally had the highest K rate on the team. That might normalize with more experience but I don't think he's ever going to be an Arraez type of hitter.

[TopGunnar]

After seeing how over hyped some of our top prospects are, I would be open to trading him for pitching. What if he ends up like Adley? A 25 going on 35 year old fat boy. 

[Ceciltrav]

44 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

Really, what evidence do you have that it created some animosity in the clubhouse?  Tell me more.

Just his overall energy or demeanor?  He wasn't the same guy in the 2nd half that we watched his first 2 years?  

[Sanity Check]

1 hour ago, Sports Guy said:

Without getting into a conversation about his defense, what position he should be in, etc…it dawns on me that Holliday, the version we saw in the minors, is exactly the type of player this team needs.

Good power, high BA, lots of walks, lots of speed. That is a combo this team needs. A guy who sees a lot of pitches, works counts, etc…

We all know the level of talent he has. We all know how all scouts and evaluators love this kid.

This year was a major disappointment and him not getting better wasn’t what you want to see. That said, he started to make an adjustment, he started to get more comfortable and he now has this experience. He is a hard worker and knows what he needs to do. 

Im expecting a 4+ WAR year out of him in 2025. Him being the best player on the team wouldn’t shock me although I wouldn’t predict him to do that.

 

One player having a really good year will matter if the other guys around him don't improve their overall approaches and results.  Our issues in the 2nd half this year didn't come down to one player making a difference.   the key to next year is a top of the order than can disrupts other pitchers early in games, something we failed to do a LOT this year.

[Moose Milligan]

6 minutes ago, Ceciltrav said:

Just his overall energy or demeanor?  He wasn't the same guy in the 2nd half that we watched his first 2 years?  

So animosity in the clubhouse was a thing?  

[Ceciltrav]

13 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

So animosity in the clubhouse was a thing?  

I can't speak intelligently on the animosity in the clubhouse, I wasn't in there but could it be a reason things went south in the 2nd half and the teams demeanor and energy wasn't the same as we saw?  Maybe?  

[LookitsPuck]

Here's the thing about Adley. He had a 2.9 fWAR this year. Is that great? Relative to catchers, he was ranked 6th best, but the guys at 3/4/5 in front of him were a rounding error, mostly: Salvador Perez (3.1), Yainer Diaz (3.1), Tyler Stephenson (3.0). So, for all intents and purposes, we're talking about as close to a Top 5 or Top 3 guy, depending on how pedantic you want to be about 0.1-0.2 fWAR. That said, William Contreras and Cal Raleigh both had 5.4, far and away more than any of the guys listed above.

Do we *need* more out of Adley Rutschman? Like, if this is who he was going forward, it's not the end of the world as long as it doesn't come with a stellar first half and an abysmal second half like this year. 

But Jackson Holliday had a 0.0 fWAR this year in 60 games and 208 plate appearances. To me, Jackson Holliday is the most important player to make strides on this team. It effectively allows you to:

• Move Westburg over to 3B
• Leave Gunnar at SS
• Add speed, power to 2B

This gives the org some versatility in the sense that Ramon Urias can be your super-utility guy instead of a starter. But, here's the thing, Urias has been worth 0.7 fWAR last year and 0.9 fWAR this year. What we'd want to see out of Jackson is something like a 2-3 fWAR. That would solidify the infield.

To me, it'd be nice to get Adley back in the ~5.0 fWAR range again. I think that's definitely possible, but I don't think it's the end all be all. Really I'd to see Holliday establish himself, take that position and make it a foregone conclusion that he's the 2B going forward just like Gunnar is to SS.

We look at the other positions, I think Cowser can definitely build on this year assuming that he can bounce back quickly in the offseason from his fractured hand. I think Santander is replaceable in RF in FA with a guy like Tyler O'Neill or Joc Pederson. Give Heston the keys to the kingdom at DH and give him some reps at times in LF and RF.

I do think there's still another OF hole. But I don't see the O's moving on from Mullins in his final season, so they'll probably play back Colton and Mullins between LF/CF and should go to FA to shore up RF.

So, yeah, Jackson is the most important guy to get going for 2025. I do think Mayo really needs to get right, but he's more of a 1B/DH type and, to be honest, the O's just don't put any kind of value at 1B, as evidenced by letting O'Hearn, Santander, Urias, Rivera take reps and/or play there. 

[Moose Milligan]

1 minute ago, Ceciltrav said:

I can't speak intelligently on the animosity in the clubhouse, I wasn't in there but could it be a reason things went south in the 2nd half and the teams demeanor and energy wasn't the same as we saw?  Maybe?  

Maybe.

I've got a date with Sydney Sweeney in a little bit, I'll catch you later.  

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, Moose Milligan said:

Maybe.

I've got a date with Sydney Sweeney in a little bit, I'll catch you later.  

I hate to tell you this, but she's really been a drag on your posting here.  I think you might have to break up for the good of the board.

[Moose Milligan]

1 minute ago, Can_of_corn said:

I hate to tell you this, but she's really been a drag on your posting here.  I think you might have to break up for the good of the board.

Damn, I thought I was improving.

[Hallas]

35 minutes ago, TopGunnar said:

After seeing how over hyped some of our top prospects are, I would be open to trading him for pitching. What if he ends up like Adley? A 25 going on 35 year old fat boy. 

Adley OPSes like .900 until he gets hit in the hand, takes a few games off because of lower back issues, and now he's an old frat boy?  Like holy crap.

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, Moose Milligan said:

Damn, I thought I was improving.

Considering the caliber of poster you were, I agree that it's natural to think you couldn't get worse.